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I second that motion. Definitely turning the screws. And what was that with the last ten seconds? Talk about being obscure.

Is it just me, or is time for someone to smack Lee REALLY hard?

(Of course, as much as JMS is making us hate him, he's probably going to turn out to be a really good guy.)
The JMS episodes to me are night and day better than the other ones. Not just because of the arc, but because of their overall feel.

That first dream sequence was great. And, just like his last big arc episode, Firewall, he used a signature line from B5 - Chrysalis. In Firewall it was "nothing's the same anymore." He used another Sinclair line this time, when Jeremiah's dad was telling him in the dream "You have forgotten something."

The episode started out very fast paced and impactful. It slowed just past the middle, but man did that last dream sequence hit hard. I thought that was great. "Our dad is coming. Here he is. See, told you *BANG*" To me, that didnt seem like a good dream for Jeremiah to have. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Lots of good stuff in this one. So it seems things were done on purpose. Ezekial's dad killed the world, and supposedly Jeremiah's dad is trying to save it. Does this mean he is a good guy? Maybe, maybe not. We know he is trying desperately to save Jeremiah through Ezekial. Well duh, he is his son. But that doesnt mean he isnt a bad guy too. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

There was lots to digest after this one. Good stuff. Makes me drool for the season finale.
I will not check this topic again until I see Tripwire.

Please, please, keep the discussion going. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
Something else that was B5ish to me was when Marcus said something to Jereimah about him having a feeling that if he went to Valhalla Sector he wouldn't return. When he said that I could just picture Kosh telling him that if he went to Valhalla Sector he would die. Maybe that was just me though
Spoiler alert!

OK, I believe that Lee tipped off Walhalla Sector that Marcus and the boys were heading into town. He is trying to stop the evil guys in Walhalla Sector in his own way. Jeremiah represents a threat to the "Lee-Ezekiel-Jeremiah's_Dad" sub-group's plans, so .... Lee hired a professional killer to finish him off!

But the killer missed. So Lee became super-panicked about the unintended consequences; that's why he worked so fervently to fix Marcus.

Lee cannot let his cover be blown. As we saw from the seriousness of Ezekiel's warning to Jeremiah, "Don't go near Walhalla Sector: if you do, everything will fall to pieces", Lee is willing to do <u>anything</u> to make his group's plans succeed, including ....

killing the blind guy!

That's why the town turned their backs on Thunder Mountain's help. Because someone from Thunder Mountain killed their #2 guy! /ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

Well, all of this is conjecture. I'm just trying to make sense of it all.

Jeremiah is such a brat. Why does he still want to go to Valhalla Sector when both Ezekiel and Marcus have given him stern warnings against going there? He's so stubborn! He should just go back to Michelle and make love to her, because she is just so HOT!!

My initial reaction, right after seeing the end:
<font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000">Holy fuck!</font></td></tr></table>
This episode definitely warrents multiple viewings and in fact, in the middle of watching it again.

I don't want to comment too much but I am still not sure what to think of Lee. I want to believe there is more to him than we have seen but damn it is getting hard to hold on to that.

Hmm, so many questions and it is getting late. *yawn*

PS: I am loving Kurdy and his underwear remark ... and the bunny ears! /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif
I watched Trip Wire last night but i had to watch it again this morning. I must say. DAMN what a good episode. I really really hate lee. I really do. I wanted Kurdy to just punch him out, put bunny ears on him .... you know the rest.
I think Jerimiah and others will start suspecting Lee. First Jerimiah saw Lee talking to Ezikiel. Then Lee was listening in on Marcus's and Jerimiah's conversation.

Jerimiah like many of you mentioned reminds me a lot about Babylon 5. From the dream type sequences just like Sheridan had , to Jerimiah will die if he goes to Vahalla sector, to the strange guy who pops in from time to time, some of the quotes of the charectors, the main charector has a missing family member who he thought was dead but now knows they are living and working with the enemy. There is so much more but you get the picture.

Alex if you are out there reading these posts. You are excellent as Ezikiel. You should be in every single episode :) Cant wait to see your charector more

The episode was great but the ending was terrific. First we see Marcus in the war room looking at the map seeing the nuclear silos were turned on as the red blip came up, then Jerimiah has another nightmare where he hears the gunshot. Excellent ending.

Cant Wait till next week
Originally posted by dellamorta:
<font color=yellow>Something else that was B5ish to me was when Marcus said something to Jereimah about him having a feeling that if he went to Valhalla Sector he wouldn't return. When he said that I could just picture Kosh telling him that if he went to Valhalla Sector he would die. Maybe that was just me though</font color=yellow>

Yeah, I saw the echo of that scene from B5 too but I don't think Jeremiah will die if he goes to VS (not sure that is what you are implying) but instead that he probably wouldn't leave ... especially if his father really is there. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
I have only had time to watch this episode once, but I have had some time to reflect and think about what has gone before, and to speculate on the meaning of it all.
spoiler space

Is Lee playing both ends against the middle - working for the Ezekiel group AND the apparent opposition to that group within Valhalla sector, or just with the Ezekiel group? It's odd that he seems to hate Jeremiah so much when Ezekiel and his father seem so bent on helping/saving Jeremiah, but this could be a personality clash or he could have other reasons for wanting Jeremiah away from Thunder Mountain. Maybe he know's it's not safe there. The fact that Lee let Ezekiel in to kill Major Quantrell would indicate that Lee is not working for Valhalla Sector (the "bad" part). If Lee and Ezekiel are fully on the same side, it is very unlikely that Lee set up the assassination attempt since Ezekiel killed the assassin.

At this time there seem to be three major groups - Thunder Mountain, Valhalla Sector (the part represented by the "Burners" and Major Quantrell) and an "unknown" group, represented by Lee/Ezekiel/Jeremiah's father. Is this unknown group working "underground" within Valhalla Sector, or from somewhere outside Valhalla Sector. The fact that Major Quantrell recognized Ezekiel leads me to believe that Ezekiel at least is working inside Valhalla Sector.
Questions that arise from all this -
1) If Lee is loyal to Marcus and the Ezekiel group, who is tipping off Valhalla Sector?
2) If there is a second leak inside Thunder Mountain, who is it? Most likely it is someone who seems above suspicion. In speculating on this, I can't help but think about a plot device that JMS had planned to use in B5 but was unable to do so due to cast changes between "The Gathering" and the series itself. I'm referring to the individual who was originally supposed to play the traitor's role that fell on Talia Winters. Could it be that JMS is finally going to get to use that plot device in "Jeremiah"? I won't say any more about this, but hard-core B-5 fans should be able to make the connection.
3) How does Ezekiel know that his father "killed everyone"? Is this based solely on information supplied by Jeremiah's father? If so, is Jeremiah's father playing straight with Ezekiel or using him? Could Jeremiah's father be responsible for the "Big Death"? And could he be the source of the information that is getting to Valhalla Sector, via an unsuspecting Lee and Ezekiel?

Food for thought. I have some episode rewatching to do while waiting for the season finale in a couple of months or so.
Just finished watching it.

Holy Shit Dudes & Girls

I wish more episodes would be written by JMS. His episodes are so much better and so much more suspending.

I have to think about Ezekiel's statement in Firewall before he kills Quantrell. "My fathers say hello. Both of them." One father being Jeremiah's dad, the other father being Ezekiels "real" dad, the one who "killed everybody" - meaning he was in some way responsible for the Big Death. Is this father still alive? Does he have any connection with Quantrell and his bunch? As for Jeremiah's dad I think he is in Valhalla sector, but there is some kind of "underground movement" or so in Valhalla Sector. That statement from Firewall leads me to believe that both Ezekiel's fathers have contact with Quantrell -- and both presumably want him dead. I guess we will find out what's up sooner or later - i hope sooner /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

A nother thing I have to think about is the way Lee somehow seems like the ultimate asshole at the moment - he is definantley hiding a lot. I had to think about the theories I had in my head about Delenn during Babylon 5's season one. I had much the same feelings for her as I had for Lee. I think that Lee IS working for the best Interest of the Thunder Mountain crew - just by other means.

I hope that "Moon in Gemini", "Out of the Ashes", "A Means to an End" are JMS episodes. I don't think I could stand waiting to the end of the season for more of the good stuff.

No, Recoil -

HOT damn.

One of the reasons I love this show so much is that we can no longer tell who is on what side. Jeremiah even hinted at it early-on, when he and Kurdy were talking about sides - what was it? "Gee, and I thought we were all on the same side?"

I love Jeremiah, because he's not what we would call a "good guy." He has temper tantrums. He's very self-motivated. In fact, he's... wait a minute... did you all notice a very disturbing Markus line?

"They're inconveniently strong-willed."

Strong-willed people are only inconvenient in a political system that values docility and compliance.

Makes ya think, huh?

I had to go back to check on the scene where Markus was shot, and on Lee's lines a few later - something to the point of "What makes you think he was aiming at Markus - he might have been aiming at you."

What a disturbing, disturbing trend.

Let's take what we know Ezekiel has said to Jeremiah: "The thunder will change you forever, but everyone you love will fall at the end of the world."

I'm having trouble telling who the good guys are, here. I know Lee is pivotal - he's a crux point. Jeremiah is also a crux point, if only for his value to SOME people in Valhalla Sector to use against Devon, his father, who might be a dissenting voice therein.

Ahh, Lee. I dislike him. I dislike him a lot.

He knows a lot about Jeremiah, too. But is he trying to kill Jeremiah - or is he working with Ezekiel to protect him, which means keeping him wandering about doing his "la la, I'm just a wanderer" deal, and out of the possession of the "big boys?"

Lee could be our "leak," but you never know. Maybe the leak is Markus. Lee, after all, is his right-hand man, and tends to make things easier, or facilitate, others' actions - Markus' and Ezekiel's.

One question. Was Lee within Thunder Mountain at the outset, or was he brought in? If he was in from the beginning, there's a lot more going on here than we previously suspected (like that's a surprise, with this show).

Anyone who says JMS isn't a good writer after this - I will smack thee on the head with a silo. I can definitely see where Rangers went by the wayside in planning this baby.

For now on, the only people I'm going to be sure of are Jeremiah and Kurdy. I don't know about anybody else.

I wonder if Jeremiah feels the same way...

From now on.

And one last thought. I never knew anybody rich enough to be able to afford ponies at a fifth birthday party. Never. And my friends were very posh people. Sounds like Jeremiah's father might have been an important guy, to be able to afford ponies for his son.

Kudos on this one, obviously, to JMS, and to Alex Zahara, who is friggin' awesome. He's only been in - what - three episodes, and he's already created one of the best characters in the entire show. Shiiiiiiiiiit - did any of you NOT get a chill down your spine with that scene between Jeremiah and Ezekiel in the dark room?

Hot damn, Recoil. Hot damn.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by channe:
<font color=yellow>CHANNE TAKES ON "TRIPWIRE"

One question. Was Lee within Thunder Mountain at the outset, or was he brought in? If he was in from the beginning, there's a lot more going on here than we previously suspected (like that's a surprise, with this show).</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

I think he was recruited. Markus said in The Long Road that Simon recommended two people - Mathew and Lee Chen
I personally don't like Lee for the way he is towards Jeremiah. But!!!! you have to wonder, or think, that Lee is a good guy. Why else would he be talking to Ezekiel? Also in another post someone said something about Leadership. Well Marcus goign back out after being shot is bravery to me (a trait of a leader). Yes there has to be a leak, but who? a couple thoughts on this. It can be someone we haven't heard about yet, maybe someone else on the high council? even the chick? I mainly believe Lee is talking to someone else in VS and they might be a traitor, or someone at VS is monitoring the channle or whatever. Or the guy that is getting to messages is a traitor, maybe Jeremiahs dad doesn't know how to work a radio? = P And people at VS are probably in the radio station more then people at Thunder Mountain, because they may have more use of it. I forget who, but you think someone from Thunder Mountain hurt Deburry's number 2 guy? I personally felt that, and thought it was obvious, that VS got to them and showed them what could happen if they take their support. And i also felt this was reinforced by that silo coming to power right afterwards. I tihnk Lee is mean towards Jeremiahy because he is jealous of him for some odd reason, or he is mean to him to make him feel a certain way for some reason. I don't know but i cant wait to find out.
Lee was brought in? i wasn't for sure if he was or wasn't. And i was thinking if he was how can he get so high as to pretty much Marcus's right hand man?
Wow, lots of great discussion here! It gives me a lot to chew on.

I am now done with the site updates and my review can be read here:

The boldest thing I put in my review was who I thought the leak was ... and it isn't anyone we can put a name to yet. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

fankob5 said:
<font color=yellow>The fact that Lee let Ezekiel in to kill Major Quantrell would indicate that Lee is not working for Valhalla Sector (the "bad" part).</font color=yellow>

I am not convinced that Lee knew what Ezekiel really planned to do. My guess is that they had to get rid of Quantrell in order to protect TM. Ezekiel's true mission could have been to sneak him out but instead killed him for his own reasons. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

As for Ezekiel and Lee's relationship, I would love to hear what they talked where Jeremiah saw them together. Something tells me they might not be on the same side or at least not for the same reasons.

frankob5, again very interesting points you brought up especially about the leak and Jeremiah's father. I know I am second guessing everything and have no idea where this is going so I am so going to be glued to the TV on Friday nights to find out. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

channe, you pointed out so many great things ... "inconveniently strong-willed" and the Ezekiel and Lee stuff.

Also, the pony remark I took as a birthday party thing and not as something they owned which I think is what you meant. Either they went somewhere where they had ponies and clowns or they hired them for the day. Still, you might be right about the ultra rich kid stuff since I don't know anyone either who had those things at a birthday party. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Yes, Alex as Ezekiel totally kicks ass! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
Yeah hopefully we can get more discussion going on here. Last 2 weeks its been pretty dead
What first struck me about this episode were all the similarities I noticed with Babylon Five.

The first thing, of course, was the "father" dream of Jeremiah's... I don't know why, but it seemed strangely reminiscent of some the Kosh/father dreams that Sheridan had. The Father symbol shows up quite a bit in the JMS universe, very interesting.

The next thing that struck me was the conversation Marcus and the local guy had right before they went into the silo.... something to the effect that it seemed like Giants once roamed the Earth and now they're gone ... then there were other references to all the "toys" that the adults left behind after the Big Death -- The whole thing reminded me of the First Ones moving beyond the rim and all the "toys" that the shadows and vorlons left behind to forever plague the younger races.

Then there was Marcus's little speech to Jeremiah, "I have the feeling that if you ever find Valhalla Sector you won't be coming back." Seemed a lot like, "If you go to Za'ha dum you will die." It seems to me that JMS is setting up Valhalla Sector to be Jeremiah's own Za'ha dum. I have the sneaking suspicion that the cliffhanger will probably be Jeremiah finally reaching Valhalla Sector and confronting the enemy face-to-face. Undoubtedly, Jeremiah will go through a similar experience that Sheridan went through at Za'ha dum.... very interesting.

With all that said, it looks like my original suspicions about Jeremiah's father raising Ezekiel were correct ... they are "brothers" in a sense and its obvious that Ezekiel sees Jeremiah as his brother. Seeing as how I got that one right, I'm going to go off on a limb and make some more educated guesses:

#1 -- Ezekiel, Lee and Jeremiah's father aren't with Valhalla sector at all. My guess is that Jeremiah's father was involved with some type of govermental top-secret project and when the Big Death came, they went to Valhalla Sector for some answers... what they found was some evil plot of a couple of really bad dudes to take over the world. I believe that Jeremiah's father and a group of others found out about this and split-off from Valhalla Sector to set-up their own group to guard against the coming evil of Valhalla Sector (much like the Rangers were formed to guard against the Shadows once they re-emerged from the rubble of Za'ha dum)

#2-- Quantrell, on the other hand, REALLY was with Valhalla Sector and they're just as evil as he said that they were... the REASON why Lee let Ezekiel in to kill Quantrell is because they couldn't afford to let Quantrell loose with the information that Jeremiah was alive.... just as Ezekiel said, if Valhalla Sector knew that Jeremiah was alive they would use him as a pawn to get to Jeremiah's father -- the leader of the main resistance movement against Valhalla Sector!

#3 -- The cliffhanger that I mentioned will basically happen because Jeremiah will still be under the belief that his father is with Valhalla Sector....I wouldn't be surprised if there's some big noble sacrifice that takes place where Jeremiah's father gives himself up to save his son.... a hostage exchange or something like that.. and then there will be the typical scene where the father dies in Jeremiah's arms or something like that with the father saying, "I love you, son"

#4 -- My guess is that the group headed by Jeremiah's father has operatives all over the place -- some in Thunder Mountain (like Lee), some with all of these smaller groups and some even in Valhalla Sector. I can only guess as to why they wouldn't just reveal themselves to the Thunder Mountain group.

#5 -- If I'm wrong about Jeremiah's father being the head of a splinter group (which I don't think I am, because these two groups form the same sort of duality as the Vorlons and Shadows in B5) then there may be some sort of power struggle going on with Valhalla Sector itself. Under this scenario, Jeremiah's father, Lee and Ezekiel are all with Valhalla Sector, but they represent some sort of minority interest within the larger group. The reason why Ezekiel doesn't want Jeremiah to go there would still be the same -- they would essentially use Jeremiah against his father to shut down the minority opposition.
Oops, sorry about that frankob5, I just saw where you said basically the same thing. I just caught Tripwire on Sunday night, so I intentionally avoided this thread until then.

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