The box that lies & the ship that looked like a Shadow...

Quagmire · May 3, 2001

Drakh, I heard it from JMS in part of his description why the original TNT order was screwy. I don't remember exactly where. I just checked lurkers and I did not find it, just the mention that the voice was Cole's altered.

Maybe DeMartino can run this one down, he's got one hell of a memory.

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Bus
"Yes, he is handsome in an ugly sort of way."-Homer

MrgnPhnx · May 4, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GideonsMine:
wonder what it would actually be the end of?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Everything...

Sorry, the Vorlon in me had to come out for a second.

les

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GideonsMine · May 4, 2001

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, verrrrrrrrryyyyyyy interesting.

Hence why the box would become so believable to the user, it sounds just like the user. Maybe it gains some mental power as it goes along.

Could have gone lots of places with that idea. But only if JMS hadn't killed off Gideon. I am still ranting over that unproduced script. I REMEMBER SINCLAIR!!!!

I think I miss Crusade.

LOL

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

GideonsMine · May 4, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MrgnPhnx:
Everything...

Sorry, the Vorlon in me had to come out for a second.

les

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tis Cool, I don't trust Vorlons either. Remember the one that enjoyed hurting Lyta?
I don't think they are all they are cracked up to be.

IMHO

Somebody please tell me that Gideon doesn't die. Please?

I did enjoy reading them though. They were good. It was nice to see he was picking up vervor.

I don't think Major Lee was exactly lying considering the other revelations in that script. Must have been hard to take. But I would like to hope that he and Galen would have made up considering Galen tried to save him from the shooting. But JMS mentions seeing the reaction of the impact and I freaked. I mean freaked.

Galen just isn't a "bad guy".

And it was nice to see Bester survive. But Top Dog being Garibaldi, thought i was gonna die laughing. Considering he has a justifiable vendetta against Bester all things considered. Would have made great story fodder on down the line and would have kept Garibaldi onboard for those that just love the guy.

I want my captain back. Don't pull a Sinclair on me please???????

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

Bester · May 5, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GideonsMine:
Somebody please tell me that Gideon doesn't die<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who knows? If you think about it, the story would have progressed well either way. If Gideon did die Matheson would have taken his place in a shot (excuse the pun!)

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The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father
Trust the Corps

**DONOTDELETE** · May 7, 2001

I think Gideon probably would not have died. It is valuable to maintain a continuous protagonist. The replacement of Sinclair with Sheridan actually IMHO disrupted this kind of flow for B5, and it was probably a necessity based on the actors obligations and wishes. I don't think JMS would have written Gideon out of the story unless there had been problems with Gary Cole; and though we probably wouldn't have heard about it if it was so, there is no reason to assume this was going on.

I think it is far more likely that Galen would have died somehow. Galen is far too powerful to be maintained throughout the series; if he keeps bailing everyone out of trouble, there is less of a sense of danger. In many ways he potentially serves the same role as Kosh in B5; a guru who dies so the protagonist can mature and fulfil his independant destiny.

As for the Apocalypse Box... I find this highly interesting, and have some random speculations based on some information posted here about it (them.) In fact, I have a what-if scenario for how Crusade could have played out.

All of the First Ones that have been encountered in the series have relatively benign motivations regarding younger races. Even the Shadows sow chaos in order to speed evolution; which is a cruel means for a theoretically positive objective. They also have a kind of fragile social order between them, which caused the majority of them to exit for the rim.

What if there had been heretical First Ones who had non-benign motivations regarding the younger races? Perhaps they loathed the younger races, and wanted to obliterate them completely.

What if the reason why the First Ones had any relations at all, was that in the very beginning there was one race which was so destructive that the rest had to come together to stop them-- much like the Shadow War but when the Vorlons and Shadows were the equivalent of us?

And what if some of these beings were so old and powerful, that like Lorien they were ageless and indestructable? In order to stop them, they would have to be imprisoned like a genie in a bottle... and perhaps six of these prisons were left behind by accident when the last of the Vorlons and Shadows left to join their brethren.

And what if one of these beings had figured out how to escape by giving a human captain the instructions to break the lock, persuading him it was the means to stop a certain plague...

In my fantasy version of Crusade, that is what would have happened in the second season. The "cure" would be revealed, the beings in the Apocalypse Boxes would escape, and the new mission of Captain Gideon would be to elist the undependable _aid_ of the Drakh in order to prevent the six heretical First Ones from destroying all life as we know it.

JMS dropped some hints that not all the First Ones had departed for the rim; perhaps a Vorlon in suspended animation in a forgotten outpost. If my fantasy version of Crusade came to pass, perhaps this Vorlon had been intentionally left behind as a tracker, to collect the Apocalypse Boxes before their contents were released.

Now... how angry would that Vorlon be at humanity if he discovered that these heretical First Ones had been liberated?

Bester · May 7, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WhatDoYouWant:
I think it is far more likely that Galen would have died somehow. Galen is far too powerful to be maintained throughout the series; if he keeps bailing everyone out of trouble, there is less of a sense of danger. In many ways he potentially serves the same role as Kosh in B5; a guru who dies so the protagonist can mature and fulfil his independant destiny.B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're absolutely right. In all good stories which contain a teacher/student relationship, the teacher always somehow "moves aside" in order for the student to grow and take his place (eg, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Babylon 5). This type of relationship is one of the fundamental basics of Jungian psychology.

I'm sure that Crusade would have followed the same formula. The question is: would Galen have *died*?

I prefer to think that he would rather have somehow lost/given-up his technomage tech; Possibly as a reaction to what he saw in End of the Line (when he observes exactly how dangerous the tech can be if it gets into the wrong hands).

Also, it is worth noting that both Gideon *and* Dureena appeared to play "student" to Galen's "teacher".

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The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father
Trust the Corps

[This message has been edited by Bester (edited May 07, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bester (edited May 07, 2001).]

Deviot · May 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bester:

I'm sure that Crusade would have followed the same formula. The question is: would Galen have *died*?

I prefer to think that he would rather have somehow lost/given-up his technomage tech; Possibly as a reaction to what he saw in End of the Line (when he observes exactly how dangerous the tech can be if it gets into the wrong hands).

Also, it is worth noting that both Gideon *and* Dureena appeared to play "student" to Galen's "teacher".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ha that would be amusing imagine Galen getting himself Flayed (a term the techno-mages use when they take the tech out of a mage-It basically kills them in the process).

If you read the Techno-mage book you see how painful it is to have the Tech implanted..Imagine the ultimate agony on having it removed.

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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au

GideonsMine · May 8, 2001

Hey handsome, I hate to sound stupid here, but what is spoo?

Past mildly curious.

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

Bester · May 8, 2001

I can see that I need to read those books!!

It's not easy to get hold of them where I live

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The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father
Trust the Corps

GideonsMine · May 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bester:
Who knows? If you think about it, the story would have progressed well either way. If Gideon did die Matheson would have taken his place in a shot (excuse the pun!)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, too young, not a captain yet. Ship would have been recalled somewhere and a new captain brought in. I doubt Gary Cole would have signed on for a scant few episodes and of course anyone would could do Mike Brady and then Lucas Buck is definitely worth looking at. Besides, he's mine, all mine, mine mine mine

I am going to find a way to watch those PAL tapes if it kills me.

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

Deviot · May 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bester:
I can see that I need to read those books!!

It's not easy to get hold of them where I live

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try seeking them of the internet.

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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au

vakie · May 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Hence why the box would become so believable to the user, it sounds just like the user. Maybe it gains some mental power as it goes along.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I have another theory about that, I posted this on the sci-fi board a while back...

When Gideon wins the box in TPoS, the previous owner tells him that the box lies... not all the time, but just enough. Suddenly he goes quiet and looks at the box. It seems like the box says something to the man, but no one else can hear it. He then freaks out and runs out to the street, and gets run over. Before he dies, he says he's free now. It was the only way. He's free.

If you think about it, it becomes pretty obvious what the box tells him. It probably says something to the effect of: "You're about to die." The man of course thinks something is going to happen in the bar that's gonna kill him, so he runs away trying to get away from the thing that kills him. But infact by doing that, he actually makes the prophecy of the box come true. So in essence, the box lied, but on the other hand, it didn't.

JMS said that the times we hear the box talk, it is the voice of Gideon. Because we nor no one else in the bar can't hear what the box tells the man, we can assume only the person who the box is talking to can hear it, and hears what it has to say in their own voice (why would the guy hear it speaking in Gideon's voice?). This would imply some sort of telepathic connection, instead of actual sound coming from the box. Gideon only hears the box talking in his mind, asthough he was thinking it himself, thus, the box talks in his voice.

As to the origin of the box... well, beats the hell out of me.

Ahh... 31 posts... ambassadorship.

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vakie

[This message has been edited by vakie (edited May 08, 2001).]

GideonsMine · May 8, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by vakie:
When Gideon wins the box in TPoS, the previous owner tells him that the box lies... not all the time, but just enough. Suddenly he goes quiet and looks at the box. It seems like the box says something to the man, but no one else can hear it. He then freaks out and runs out to the street, and gets run over. Before he dies, he says he's free now. It was the only way. He's free.

Ahh... 31 posts... ambassadorship.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you on the voice thing in totality. Just makes sense.

I have a way to go on the posts bit there, but i am working on it.

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

GideonsMine · May 8, 2001

shows you how brain dead I am. I didn't even realize i had hit the 32 posts.

I definitely like Ambassador better than "Pouchling". Although it is cute. I am way tooooooo old for "Pouchling"

LOLOLOL

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

**DONOTDELETE** · May 9, 2001

I don't think Galen should die, he maybe a teacher to Gideon, but he too still seemed to have a bit to learn. He was not all-knowing like Kosh, and was quite capable of making mistakes. Besides, i think the rift between he and Gideon would have to be healed before either of them went to that giant Space Station in the sky!

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I'll take flawed genius over offensive banality anyday

jerryo · May 18, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bester:
The show is all about Shadow tech and Vorlon tech that was left over from when all the First Ones exited known space. The left-over tech is now in the hands of the younger races...

...SPOILERS...

The Excalibur = (partial) Vorlon tech

Matheson (teep) = human teeps were engineered by Vorlons

Ship that destroyed Cerberus = (partial) Shadow tech

Technomage tech = Shadow tech

Drakh plague = Shadow tech

Apocolypse box = First One tech (of some kind) ??

Also, in one of the unfilmed Crusade scripts Dureena has an interesting sword that could have been First One in origin.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where was the reference to Technomage tech being related to Shadow Tech? Was that in one of the unfilmed scripts (someone please email to me) or was it mentioned in one of the episodes? If true, could imply that the original Technomages were an engineering project of the Shadows during the last Shadow war of 1000 years ago. There was some reference in the first book of the Technomage series to the effect that the original source of the technology was lost at around that time (when the Shadows departed known space).

Jerry

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Quagmire · May 18, 2001

Give me an email address if you want them.
The short stories as well.

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Bus
"The electric yellow has got me by the brain banana."

GideonsMine · May 19, 2001

I see so much potential in these stories. I seriously dislike TNT big time at this point. Although I will watch Mists of Avalon as it is my favorite book. But I avoid the station most of the time because of it. Plus I have sent them a good share of angry mail. LOL doubt they care, but I felt better.

He just wouldn't have had Gideon die. No, he just wouldn't do that to me. He did me in when they fired Michael O'Hare and it took me a long time to get into Sheridan, although I liked everyone else, so I continued to watch. The characters have not been fully developed on Crusade yet thanks to TNT so it wouldn't make any sense to kill him off unless Gary Cole wanted out of his contract. And I just love seeing back on the telly.

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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

Galahad · May 21, 2001

I think JMs did say something about the real story of Crusade not being about the search for a cure, that the story would be turned on it's head. I like the idea of a war with rogue first ones, you couldn't just tell them to get the Hell out of our galaxy. They would need more convincing. However the Drakh probably wouldn't sign on for it, because they are still a threat right up until Vir's accession to the throne of Centauri Prime.

Ark of the Covenant... apocolypse box, I don't hink so.... nature is completely different. The Bible says what was in it for one, and I think the presence of God on the Mercy Seat of it is a bit more potent than an apocalypse box. The Ark's prime use was to receive the sacrifice of blood to atone for the sin of Israel. Some say it was buried beneath Golgotha, others say it is in Ethiopia hidden in a church there, there is even a seemingly cult worship of it, I doubt the latter location though as I would imagine various Governments would have checked it out by now and tried to nick off with it, although this would almost certainly result in death.

Anyway I am floating off the subject hyperspace beacon so I will jump back to normal space.

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"

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