• The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.

Not a complaint, per say....faith in JMS...

  • Thread starter **DONOTDELETE**
  • Start date
D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
This isnt a third complaint or anything by me. I started the other 2 (too much action, young actors), but this isnt the same.

This is my posting on how everyone has so much faith in JMS. Yeah, he is a great guy with the community and did a great job with B5 (less with Crusade, but yeah, TNT ruined it too).

BUT....I cant follow him blindly and have faith because he did a great job before. You all can....and it amazes me. George Lucas was the EXACT same....then he made Episode I. I liked it, but lost alot of respect for him, for obvious reasons.

So, when following JMS blindly...(No offense JMS), remember George Lucas.

Anyhew, dont think I am lacking my faith in the big guy, or the show. Just posting my thoughts.

------------------
It has been my observation that if someone cannot say what they mean, they can truly never mean what they say.
 
Actually I occasionaly watch Power Rangers which is on SPACE on Sunday mornings, and I can see a lot of similarities with certrain scenes in B5. Also I have watched a lot of Murder she Wrote in which JMS was a script editor (or something)
I certainly don't think he is perfect. He wrote several very bad scripts for B5 and he sometime gets carried away by his own personal demons.

I am prepared to watch the movie B5LR and the series, if it comes to be. But I was never an overall fan of Crusade but I made a lot of allowances because of the TNT interference. I will always believe JMS deserves a hearing, but I reserve the right to judge any series as it affects me personally. If I like it, I will continue watching.
smile.gif


------------------
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I cant follow him blindly and have faith because he did a great job before. You all can...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody is following anybody blindly. This is always the line taken by people who prefer to see the dark side of everything, that the rest of us are just "following blindly" while only they have the insight and the integrity to be sceptical. Spoo, I say.

JMS, Doug Netter, et. al., have a track record. Nobody is perfect, and everybody screws up once in awhile but show for show, on both B5 and Crusade they did a better job than 90% of all the TV producers that have ever existed. The rule of thumb in U.S. series television is that about 1/3 of your episodes will be good, 1/3 OK and 1/3 you'll wish you never had to look at again for the rest of your life.

Those numbers hold up pretty well for most TV series, including classics like the original Trek and The Twilight Zone. B5 and Crusade beat those odds by a country mile. Crusade certainly didn't have 4 lousy episodes out of 12 (I don't count "War Zone" at all.) And B5 didn't come close to having 30 some bad episodes. The most critical fan can't come up with more than a dozen out of 110.

George Lucas? Frankly, Lucas couldn't write his way out of a damp paper bag, and he isn't much of a director. The original Star Wars is a grab-bag of mythic, pop-culture and Jungian influence that mostly by luck touched a nerve with people (and which had amazing special effects to boot.)

It reminds me of the story of the professor's critique of a student paper: "Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately the parts that are good aren't original, and the parts that are original aren't good."

In many respects, Star Wars really isn't a very good film. Its virtues outweigh its (manifest) flaws in logic, storytelling, characterization and (Heaven knows) dialogue, but that doesn't mean those flaws aren't there.

Empire was a much better film. Of course, Lucas didn't write it and he didn't direct it. When he took more direct control again (in Return) the quality slipped visibly.

And what else has Lucas really done? THX-1138 was an exercise in pure cinema, heavily influenced by 2001. The dialogue is minimal, the characterizations largely up to the actors, and the camera work is skillful. Lucas played to his strengths and produced something interesting, if totally unoriginal.

American Grafitti was probably the film that most connects to Lucas's real life, is the most honest and human thing he ever made, and is utterly charming. (He also had a co-writer on it, so the dialogue resembles something that actual humans might say to one another.)

And that's pretty much it. He has produced films made by more talented collaborators, but he himself hasn't written or directed anything at all worthwhile since 1977, and hasn't done a really great film since Grafitti.

Compare that output to 150 or so hours of TV produced in half the time, and with no more than 20 hours (probably more like 14) that anyone can genuinely call bad. So, yeah, I have a lot more faith in JMS than I ever would in George Lucas. With JMS it is the failures, not the successes, that are the flukes.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
George Lucas? Frankly, Lucas couldn't write his way out of a damp paper bag, and he isn't much of a director[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol... star wars was good in my eyes, but i think we should give that series the old yeller treatment pretty soon...[ i mean does anyone read the books anymore]
crazy.gif


------------------
I have no one to envy...
I envy you having me to envy...
 
I don't follow JMS blindly. My, my - I'm a writer myself, and if anyone followed *me* blindly, I'd have to check their sanity...

Why I like him is that he does have that track record someone mentioned above. He has entertained the pants off of me before, and I expect he will do so in the future because he's proven he can do it.

I also expect a lot of screwups, messups, bad scripts, and etc., because he -is- a writer, and writers CAN suck, just like the rest of humanity (*gasp*)

We're not out to start a JMS religion. We just like his writing.

Just because someone reads a lot of Tom Clancy doesn't make their views of Tom Clancy infallible. Look at it that way
smile.gif


------------------
Channe, Freelance Writer Extraordinaire and The Next JMS
--
B5 Synchroninity of the Day: I just found out that the new dorm I'm living in next year has been named Breen Hall.
 
I think the aspect of a "Rangers" series (assuming WB and SciFi can agree on who pays what!) that will be the greatest adjustment for me will be the writers. JMS wrote an insane percentage of the B5 scripts himself. I'd never heard of any one writer carrying that much of a weekly series before.

If a “Rangers” series comes out, JMS will oversee the writing, but he won’t write the majority of the episodes himself, from what I understand. (Good, it might kill him, it’s too much work for one person. Even one person who likes to write 10 hours a day.)

I didn’t get to know the writers of the “Crusade” episodes, but I’m assuming that not all of the "Crusdade" episodes were written by JMS. I wonder what writers he already has lined up in his mind for a possible “Rangers” series. I look forward to seeing who he chooses. Maybe I can find a new good scifi author by paying attention to the writing credits!


------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo
 
I'm reminded of a line from Batman: The Long Halloween by Jeph Loeb, " I believe in Gotham City."

(btw, if you haven't read Batman: The Long Halloween by Jeph Loeb, you should! Its a great mystery, IMO)

I'll take that line and say, " I believe in JMS."

He hasn't disappointed me yet. Babylon 5, Crusade, Tribulations, Othersyde, Amazing Spiderman, Rising Stars, the first issue of Midnight Nation (I could kick myself for not keeping up with the RS and MN. Gotta get the trade-paperbacks!), heck even an episode of Murder, She Wrote that I saw that was written by him was good!

The guy isn't your regular writer. He's got that something special something. (like Josh Weldon and David Kemper do..but maybe even more so. I'd definitly put JMS in league with Rod Serling)

Oh btw, on the subject of George Lucas, I liked Star Wars: Episode 1. I think the reason many people didn't is cause they expected something different. The waiting that George Lucas did was both good and bad.

Good because lots of people went to see the movie. They REALLY wanted to see the movie.

And bad cause people had had LOTS of time to make up their minds about what they thought Episode 1 would be and then got disappointed cause it was so different from what they thought.

So thats why I think most people didn't like it. Then there were other people who didn't like Star Wars (*shivers*) and others who just can't enjoy a fun movie.

I found it enjoyable myself. Sure it wasn't as great as Empire or Return..but heck its EPISODE 1. Give the guy a break. Episode 2 and Episode 3 should be even better!

Though I do think he should change that, " Attack of the Clones " title. And people complained about the " Phantom Meance". I liked the " Phantom Meance"

Attack of the Clones though..

Well anyway, I believe in JMS. I think he'll prove all the nay-sayers wrong!

DF2506

------------------
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> We're not out to start a JMS religion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Besides, we'd be too late.
Somebody already did.
laugh.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Church of JMS
3 Nov 1994
Speaking as an atheist, if there is to be a church of jms, then I must become its first apostate and refuse to believe in myself (adding further insecurity to my life), and nail a whole bunch of theses to the front door on the way out....
jms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
I don't understand the whole "JMS" thing. Sure, he's a producer and writer, but he's not the whole damn show. There are other people that make it, you know.

We're all B5 fans here, right? Therefore, we wanna see what happens in the B5 universe, no? So, what's the problem? I don't think I've ever seen people complicate something more than I have here.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
I wouldn't say I have blind faith in JMS. But based on what he's done before, I'm more inclined to be optimistic about the Rangers than pessimistic.

I was not over-enthused by Crusade at first, before seeing it - I wanted more B5, not some strange almost entirely Human crew. Well, even though I took the pessimistic approach then, I ended up being very pleasantly surprised. I really liked Crusade.

And yes, I just want some new stuff in the B5 universe.
smile.gif
I don't know if I'm going to like absolutely every little detail about the movie - most probably not. But based on what I've heard & read so far, I see nothing that would make me think I'm *not* going to like it.

Besides, it has G'Kar in it. I *am* going to like it.
laugh.gif


------------------
"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
 
For me at least, since I expect such good things from JMS, I am probably more easily disappointed, if something is less than spectacular. I certainly don't have blind faith in him.
And Joe De M, you've lost me by saying that THX1138 was influenced by 2001. I don't see how a guy who refuses to take his drugs, and tries to escape an underground society where love is a crime bears any resemblance to 2001. Visually, the only thing I can think of is that the THX uniforms slightly resembled the clothing in 2001. Otherwise, I agree with your observations about Lucas. I liked THX 1138 alot better than Star Wars.


------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindrome of the month: Satan, oscilate my metalic sonatas.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
I don't understand the whole "JMS" thing. Sure, he's a producer and writer, but he's not the whole damn show. There are other people that make it, you know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Sure there are, but he's the one who hires all the other people, so until we can see and judge their work, it all ultimatly falls on him.

And on a side note, I note that the title of the thread simply says faith, not blind faith. Just as it should.

------------------
You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I don't understand the whole "JMS" thing. Sure, he's a producer and writer, but he's not the whole damn show. There are other people that make it, you know.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As he would be the first to tell you. But as the creator, executive producer and writer of something like 70 or 80% of the scripts he was the single greatest influence on the show. Nothing got done without his approval. No actor changed a line of dialogue, no one improvised anything and the directors always checked with him before doing anything that might alter the tone of an episode - which is not the case on some shows.

He, Netter and a handful of others are also the only folks B5, Crusade and Rangers will have in common - so they are the only points of comparison. The entire regular cast is new, the FX house is new, many of the other services like makeup, appliances and costumes will be handled by local companies in Vancouver.

So if we're going to speculate about how a good a movie and or series Rangers might be, JMS is really our only yardstick.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And Joe De M, you've lost me by saying that THX1138 was influenced by 2001. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can be influenced by a film without being influenced by its story. Lucas tried to tell his story in a series of striking, but almost disconnected images, with as little dialogue as he could get away with. That's the point of comparison to 2001.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
I do not have blind faith in JMS, and I do not refer to him as the "Great Maker", not even in a joking manner. He is just a man. I happen to like his work.

I truly enjoyed Babylon 5. I consider it to be the single best show that I have ever seen. I liked Crusade. Based upon my enjoyment of his previous work, I believe that it is reasonable to assume that I will enjoy Rangers.

I am a fairly optimistic person. The glass is half full and all that. Therefore, all of my positive posts must be indicative of my sun-shiny nature.
laugh.gif


If this was a private conversation, I would feel insulted by the insinuation that I am such a simpleton. Do not misconstrue my last comment as a personal attack. That was not my intention. It is a simple statement of my initial reaction.

Frizzell

------------------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift

"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So if we're going to speculate about how a good a movie and or series Rangers might be, JMS is really our only yardstick. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I know. I was just expressing a knee-jerk reaction to all the speculating (I know it's hard to believe, but sometimes I post things without completely thinking it through
wink.gif
).

I get both amused and annoyed when I see things like, "Oh, look here, JMS scratched his nose during an interview. Therefore, the show will suck."

The problem with figures like JMS is that some people are eager to praise him, make him their Messiah, and set off car bombs in his name, while others sit around in dimly lit rooms, eagerly anticipating the smallest opportunity to point out and exaggerate any minor flaw while laughing maniacally.

He's a dude who makes some TV. That's it.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
He's a dude who makes some TV. That's it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Oh, I happen to think that if you add up all the good stuff, and the not so good stuff, he still comes out pretty far ahead, qualifying for the status of kewl person... Even if he isn't perfect.

------------------
You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert
 
Joe D....how can you dump on StarWars? It didnt just to happen to hit it big. It was a well, WELL written piece of science fiction with good characters, special effects and story. It is a deep, DEEP story. Special effects didnt make it big. People who watch a movie for the effects arent fans, they are people who simply liked the movie/effects. There are TONS of FANS out there, dedicated to StarWars. These fans dont simply enjoy the space scenes. Episode I sucked and it was 90% CGIing. You simply couldnt be more wrong....

------------------
It has been my observation that if someone cannot say what they mean, they can truly never mean what they say.
 
I didn't say Star Wars was bad. (See another thread for how many copies of it I've owned over the years.) I said that Lucas isn't much of a filmmaker, and that much of what makes the film work happened by accident, or in spite of him, not because of him. And his dialogue is awful for the most part. Most of the really memorable lines were ad-libs by Harrison Ford, the only actor experienced enough that Lucas let him ad-lib. (Carrie Fisher told Lucas at the time, "George, you can type this stuff, but you can't say it." She was right.)

Since you brought Lucas up a as "great artist who later disappointed", I just thought I'd point out that he wasn't really that great an artist in the first place. So the comparison with JMS doesn't work. I'm not saying that JMS is fit to carry Harlan Ellison's or Ray Bradbury's typewriter, but he's sure as heck proven himself to be a better writer (and producer - no Howard the Duck or Willow on his resume) than Lucas. And in a lot less time. As long as he keeps learning from the work he does, he'll probably only get better.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It is a deep, DEEP story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PUH-lease. The Illiad is a deep story. The Odyssey is a deep story. War and Peace is a deep story. The Lord of the Rings comes close. Star Wars has all the depth of The Wizard of Oz (a film it closely resembles, down to the structure and the character archetypes.) Star Wars is essentially a fairy tale retold in space. That doesn't mean it doesn't resonnate strongly with audiences, or that it isn't a charming film (the same can be said of Snow White and Sleeping Beauty.) They're all good films in their own way, but deep? I don't think so.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
I can remember that, when Star Wars first came out, a lot of people trying to describe Why they liked it tended to compare it to a nice Disney Flick in its effect on them.

It was a "feel good" movie.

None of those original fans claimed it was a "great Movie". It was just the one of the best SF movies that had been made to that date.
When you look at the competition, it's easy to see why.

Except for 2001 & "The Day the Earth Stood Still", there was almost No Good Movie SF to choose from.

SF Fans celebrated SW because it was Good Fun.



------------------
Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
You just keep losing respect in my eyes when it comes to this stuff.....Lord of the Rings not as strong as the others you mentioned? Oh come on.

Lucas created Star Wars. It didnt just so 'happen' to hit it big. It had memorable characters (Darth Vader) and Jedi, a concept seen and used everywhere, and copied all over.

I dont even want to continue on the 'good points' of it. I cant even believe it....haha.

------------------
It has been my observation that if someone cannot say what they mean, they can truly never mean what they say.
 

Latest posts

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top