Not a complaint, per say....faith in JMS...

Chris Springob · Sep 9, 2001

I actually do think that it's reasonable to expect the spin-off to have a better start than the preceding show. B5's later seasons weren't just better than the 1st season because they had more of the arc in them or because JMS had discovered who the characters were. They were also better because JMS's writing ability had improved. For this reason, I expected Crusade's first season to be better than B5's first season (and I was right, IMHO

).

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whitestar90 · Sep 9, 2001

Well my opinion is that you have to go on track record, look at the whole B5 series and you'll find that it had a story to it. Now this would have taken planning and this made B5 a success.Crusade didn't have time to cut away the rough edges to produce the gem like qualities of the storyline(damm tnt) so to me it not faith but known fact that Rangers would be a success because JMS has proven he can deliver the goods

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Emporer Turhan-"How will this end"
Kosh-"In fire"

GKarsEye · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Every new show, involving new characters and new stories, takes time to find its feet. Even if the initial episodes are good the later ones will be different as the writers, producers and actors find the right tone for the characters and the stories.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's funny, I was going to say something about how no show has a good first season. I stopped myself because I don't watch a lot of TV, and I figured that Joe D would come in with some examples of shows that were really good in the beginning.

So, can anyone think of any examples?

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Chris Springob · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
It's funny, I was going to say something about how no show has a good first season. I stopped myself because I don't watch a lot of TV, and I figured that Joe D would come in with some examples of shows that were really good in the beginning.

So, can anyone think of any examples?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ST:TOS.

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taichidave · Sep 9, 2001

I don't find everything JMS has done to be fantastic. I find a couple of JMS written episodes of Babylon 5 simply horrid (Secrets of the Soul and much of Grey 17 leap to mind). That's two out of what, around 85-90 episodes he wrote?

As far as Crusade goes, JMS wrote ten (I think) episodes that got produced, only one of which I disliked (Visitors from Down the Street). It gets even better if I factor in the two unproduced scripts he wrote, which I thought were the best scripts of the lot.

I think an objective observer, armed with that data would say the odds favor me enjoying the Rangers movie. (Or more accurately, the odds disfavor me hating the thing.)

Forgive me if I don't see the blind faith here. I must be lost in my own false consciousness or somesuch.

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"We are all Kosh."

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 9, 2001

Buffy. Angel. Dark Angel. Seineld. Friends. Survivor.

All Im saying is, besides the lack of character developement, the first season of Crusade should have been as good as season3-5 for Babylon5. The story is different, but tied in. It is a continueing story.

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It has been my observation that if someone cannot say what they mean, they can truly never mean what they say.

taichidave · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WarrenGG:
All Im saying is, besides the lack of character developement, the first season of Crusade should have been as good as season3-5 for Babylon5. The story is different, but tied in. It is a continueing story. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point in that after doing five seasons of a series, you have picked up tools to add to your TV writer/producer belt.

I have to disagree with the assertion that the Crusade story can keep the momentum of the B5 storyline.

When doing any kind of new project, be it software solution, television series, car design, or whatever, there is only so much you can take from previous projects you've done. It takes effort and a lot of trial and error to get the ball rolling. No two projects are alike, unless you're running an assembly line. And that's something JMS does not seem inclined to do.

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"We are all Kosh."

Joseph DeMartino · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>... examples of shows that were really good in the beginning. So, can anyone think of any examples?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, two of the shows I mention qualify, I think, ST:TOS and M*A*S*H. I think they were good at the beginning, I just think they were different (and generally better) later on.

B5 had an uneven first season, especially the first half, but I thought "Midnight on the Firing Line" was a strong first episode, establishing the place, the characters and the conflict immediately, and much more economically than The Gathering did. If it weren't for Lyta, her scan of Kosh, and the hole in Sinclair's mind, I wouldn't recommend that people even start with The Gathering.

"Infection" we've talked about, and "Soul Hunter" isn't a very good episode in my opinion, but "Mind War", "The Parliament of Dreams", "Born to the Purple" and "Deathwalker" are all solid episodes, many of them closer to literary SF than we normally get on TV.

"And the Sky Full of Stars", following close on the heels of "Parliament", really kicks the arc into gear.

"Believers" is an episode that most mainstream series wouldn't have touched with a 10-foot pole at the time, much less an SF show. (Spoilers for the episode below.)

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>The kid dies? The doctor doesn't save the day? The parents aren't condemned as absolutely wrong? Everybody in the story, in his/her own way is right, but we still end up with a dead cute kid? Great stuff</td></tr></table>

Yeah, there were clunkers like "TKO" and interesting failures like "Grail" in S1. But even B5' clunkers could be partially redeemed by arc or character moments, which bad episodes of other shows often aren't.

"TKO" continues the thread of Susan and her father, begun in "Born to the Purple" "Grail" includes the classic "grey" alien lawsuit scene, and a nice comic turn by the terrified Londo. "Infection" (clumsily) introduces the whole notion of ogranic technology, terrible things happening throughout the galaxy around 1,000 years ago, and EarthForce BioWeapons division and their interest in unknown and dangerous alien technologies - a thread that runs all the way through B5 and straight into Crusade.

Both Law & Order and Homicide had strong first seasons, although again, they were very different from the later shows. (The L&0 pilot, in particular, almost looks like an episode from another series. You can see the outlines of the show to come, but it is very different.)

I thought the X-Files hit the ground running, although it arguably didn't hit its stride until S3.

I think Crusade would have had a strong first season if it had been finished, even with the TNT interference. Without that interference, without "War Zone", starting off with "Racing the Night" as the first episode in mid-mission, I think it could have had a better first season than B5 did.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

terrytvgal · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WarrenGG:

the first season of Crusade should have been as good as season 3-5 for Babylon5. The story is different, but tied in. It is a continueing story.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a new series with new actors & new writers, developing a sub-plot in the over all arc of the entire B5 Universe as seen by JMS.
It was a NEW untold story in the B5 universe not a continuation of the story being told in Babylon 5. It had none of the same characters and was not set on the station. It had an entirely different set of goals for its story-- the solution to one problem --the plague--not a victory over forces older than anyone imagined and the formation of a new political reality for disparate races.
You are comparing the Beginning of a new story to the climax of an establised story.

Sorry, I can't agree with your position.

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The avalance has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

Joseph DeMartino · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The story is different, but tied in. It is a continueing story.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crusade is no more a "continuation" of B5 than DS9 or Voyager was a "continuation" of TNG. They are different shows that happen to be set in the same universe. New situation, new location, new characters. You are starting from scratch.

Which is why the first season of DS9 was not as good as the best of TNG, as your theory predicts it should have been. And the less said about Voyager - which should have been the best of the lot if you're right about quality being transferable from show to show - the better.

Come to think of it, the last couple of seasons of TNG weren't as good as the best of TNG. How do you explain a show that gets worse as it goes on - which many of them do - to the point where there is a saying in Hollywood: "Every successful series stays on the air one year longer than it should."

Crusade is one of the "side storie" that takes place in the gap between "Objects at Rest" an "SiL", not even mentioned in passing as the Telepath War and the Drakh War are, because it is so far removed from the main story that B5 was telling.

You had a new cast, a new crew to a large extent, new characters, a completely different setting and format (wandering ship instead of a space station where your stories come to you) - a totally different show. One that I happen to think was as good as B5 S1. So there is no "quality" gap to excuse or explain as far as I'm concerned.

I have a feeling you are insisting that Crusade was simply a "continuation" of B5 because that's what you wanted and expected it to be, and the real reason you didn't like it is because it wasn't. If that's the case, you're bound to be disappointed in Rangers, because it isn't going to be Babylon 5 either.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Technomage Roanna · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WarrenGG:
I think everyone does defend him blindly. That is a good way to reinterpret it, thanks. Everybody says, "He is the great maker! Ill watch anything he dishes out!" and garbage like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the expectation that JMS will continue to surprise us, and tell stories we want to know more about characters fully drawn.

That's far from saying we expect him to be perfect. I expect him to keep extending his reach as a writer/producer because of the evidence of the past and present. By definition, there will be experiments that fail included.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Roanna, I have not read all of them, but from the one I did complete, I can say that in my opinion, it doesnt stack up to LOTR. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

An opinion to which you are entitled, even if you don't add anything to support it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
How does me saying, "Lucas created Star Wars. It didnt just so 'happen' to hit it big. It had memorable characters (Darth Vader) and Jedi, a concept seen and used everywhere, and copied all over. " give the allusion that I follow Lucas with blind faith? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

By the use of "copied all over" as if Lucas were the original of all such stories (or whatever you meant by "all over".

Since Lucas followed in a long tradition of myth and storytelling stating that everyone else writing similar stories is copying from him, you demonstrate blindness to a longstanding literary and mythic heritage.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Luck is an illusional interpretation of chance, which relies on several variables.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just what the hell does THAT mean? Sounds like a redundant repetition of definition.

Ro

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A ship in a port is safe, but that's not what ships are for.

Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

Kribu · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WarrenGG:
You are right Dah'een, I think everyone does defend him blindly. That is a good way to reinterpret it, thanks. Everybody says, "He is the great maker! Ill watch anything he dishes out!" and garbage like that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since you say everybody - which to me sounds like a pretty broad generalisation - I felt the need to reply.

No, I don't defend JMS blindly. I've seen two things he has made, Babylon 5 and Crusade, and liked both series. You didn't like Crusade - that's fine by me. I didn't expect to like it, but I did. That's just a personal opinion.

Based on the fact that I've liked, and been entertained by, both of the two series by JMS that I have seen, I think I have the right to be optimistic about Rangers. It's set in the same universe, the story - what I've heard - sounds good to me, and I haven't been disappointed with JMS' work so far, so why should I be worried now?

Yes, there is a chance I won't like Rangers. Fine. It's impossible to like everything, all the time. But I won't know that before I've seen it.

I just don't see why being moderately optimistic - since I have no reason to believe otherwise - should mean that I defend him blindly?

I apologize if I sounded a little harsh. I understand that you are worried - you have the right to feel that way. But if others aren't worried, they shouldn't be accused of "blindly defending" JMS.

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths

bakana · Sep 9, 2001

On network television any show that Doesn't have a good First season Doesn't get a Second Season.

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 9, 2001

What I said came off differently than I meant. I dont mean that the story is the same, or harsh tied together. All I mean is that they are in the same universe. You dont have to re-introduce all the alien species and what they stand for, and all of that. I said that BESIDES the lack of developed story and characters, season 1 of Crusade should have been right up there with Seasons 3-5 of B5. NOT in story or character, but in appeal, depth, and such. If you understand....not just.....well, my opinion obviousely differs.

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It has been my observation that if someone cannot say what they mean, they can truly never mean what they say.

drakh · Sep 9, 2001

I'm in a bit off an odd position, since I enjoyed both Crusade and B5 s1 despite their rough edges. Should Crusade have been better than it was - probably, and I posted a reason why in a previoes message in this thread which you (WarrenGG) have yet to reply to.

As for the goodt first seasons, Earth: Final Conflict was superb.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited September 09, 2001).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Sep 9, 2001

Goodevening everyone!

Just to clarify two points.
First, I didn't say that in my opinion people blindly defend JMS. I just wanted to clear that up. I have no idea if it could have been read that way - I was too lax to go back and look!

I have no real opinion, though for someone simply cruising the Net, from the nature of many posts, I guess it could be implied that some of us do blindly defend JMS. Though that is the nature of fandom! I have defended him - numerous times, and from someone's perspective somewhere I guess it could be termed as 'blind'. But that doesn't really bother me as it seems to bother some people posting!

If I like something, I will defend what I see to be quality about it.

In regards to some other posts - I do not believe that anyone has claimed Star Wars to be a film that stands as some kind of literary masterpiece transferred to film. George Lucus certainly hasn't!

I don't think Babylon 5 would warrant that distinction either, despite my almost obsessive love of the series.

I simply love Babylon 5, Star Wars and Star Trek because they take me somewhere, they inspire me, and they challenge me.

If you create something which moves the heart and soul and speaks to the emotions of even one person you have created a masterpiece in my admittedly limited view.

I personally do not care if it has been acclaimed or denounced, whether it's dialogue is wonderful or just average, or whether it's characters are deep, angst ridden Chekovian archetypes or not. I care that I enjoy it, that I find humour or meaning in the dialogue, and that I see the promise of something in the characters that challenges me, and relates to me.

But I have been accused of being easily amused!

I am very selfish when it comes to my viewing habits, and honestly do not care if anyone else sees in what I like what I see in it.

If they don't want to watch it with me, I'll watch something else with them, then watch what I wanted to see alone, later!

The only thing I want to say, that I might get jumped all over for, is that I find it a little unfortunate that we need to drag something else or someone else down to prove our point, or defend something we love.

Is it just me, or doesn't that make this all somewhat horribly nasty?

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We are Grey... We stand between the Candle, and the Star...
Between Darkness, and the Light...

drakh · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Should Crusade have been better than it was - probably, and I posted a reason why in a previoes message in this thread which you (WarrenGG) have yet to reply to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I've also started a thread in the Crusade forum with a post by jms where he goes on at some length about the nature of the interference.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert

bakana · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I just wasn’t USED TO THAT from television! I couldn’t imagine it, I suppose.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lets see, we have an industry whose unofficial motto is:
"No one ever went broke underestimating the American people"??

Now why would anyone be surprized to encounter Intelligent, Adult Storytelling from such an industry??

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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

terrytvgal · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:

... and "Soul Hunter" isn't a very good episode in my opinion,...

Regards,

Joe

Click to expand...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know I am in minority in liking Soul Hunter, but for me it was the episode that addicted me to B5. The line, "They're using you..." struck me to the core and made me want to watch to know who was using Sinclair. While subsequent episodes in the first season were 'off' sometimes they held far more promise than any of the Trek stories I'd seen recently. It was gratifying to be one of the first in my circle of SF friends to realise what a gem JMS was creating.

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The avalance has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.

Joseph DeMartino · Sep 9, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The line, "They're using you..." struck me to the core and made me want to watch to know who was using Sinclair.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said, even the "bad" episodes of B5 (which are, for the most part, less "bad" than they are "routine" or "mediocre") have their redeeming features. I just didn't use "Soul Hunter" as an example, because I think the two episodes I did use were worse - and therefore made the point better.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

Not a complaint, per say....faith in JMS...

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