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B5LR: Disappointment

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2aMageing:
The Grey Council does not deal directly with the Rangers, that is Ranger one,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was not the Grey Council. It was the high council at the Ranger training facility at Tuzanor on Minbar.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2aMageing:
What is a pre white star ship, that small, doing with the ability to open a jump point?! Very big opps there. Especially with all the talk about "only larger ships can open their own jump point" from the original B5 series.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS has said that this was based on Sheridan's knowledge of Minbari ship classes, and that was by no means complete (certainly not at the time he said it).


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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
Yes, but it was Delenn who said the White Star was the smallest Minbari ship to ever be able to jump on it's own. She could have been hiding things from Sheridan at that point I suppose, or perhaps she didn't know herself (which would be hard to believe, considering she's Grey Counsil).

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Alec McClymont
3D Artist - GVFX
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slade:
Yes, but it was Delenn who said the White Star was the smallest Minbari ship to ever be able to jump on it's own. She could have been hiding things from Sheridan at that point I suppose, or perhaps she didn't know herself (which would be hard to believe, considering she's Grey Counsil).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, I asked JMS the following on rastb5m:

<font size=2 color=#FF0000>What are the overall dimensions of the Valen, Hand Ship (snowflake ship)
Liandra, and a Whitestar? Length (~diameter for the Hand ship), width and
height in feet.

The Liandra has a crew of ~20, right? What's the crew number for the Valen
(~380?, 1000 minus 600 minus ~20 ambassadors?). Whitestar ~100?

The Whitestar "seems" bigger than the Liandra, based on the number of people
seen inside and the size of the corridors. I just wondered where these
ships fall, size-wise.
</font>


...but he's not talking (and because of that, you probably shouldn't tell me either).

If the Liandra was slightly bigger than a Whitestar, Delenn's statement would be true.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/


[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited February 11, 2002).]
 
The size of the White Stars is also something of a subjective number. I don't think there's any real data about it, since ship sizes will often be changed to suit VFX shots.

I imagine the developers of the B5 game had a set, JMS approved number to go on, but I'm not sure.

I will agree, the White Stars appear to be larger, judging from the corridors and number of crew. And of course because of the addition of the fighter bay in season 5 (I think it was 5).

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Alec McClymont
3D Artist - GVFX
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slade:
I will agree, the White Stars appear to be larger, judging from the corridors and number of crew. And of course because of the addition of the fighter bay in season 5 (I think it was 5).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point.
smile.gif
Episode 102 (Prod. #515) Meditations on the Abyss. IIRC, the fighter bay holds 2 or 3 Nials.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
I think it could also handle a single Minbari Flyer. Either way, that's a very large docking bay. Considering it's placement, and the size of that area on the outside of the ship, I'd say the White Stars are pretty big.

Of course the bridge window seems to contradict this. Since using the same logic the window would probably be about 40 high, which of course isn't true. The White Stars made perfect sense until that docking bay came into the mix
mad.gif


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Alec McClymont
3D Artist - GVFX
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
 
There is a bit ambiguity in the whole ship sizes question. I also find it peculiar that an almost certainly more advanced ship such as a White star has pretty much only forward firing weapons, while an older model such as the Liandra has an omni-directional weapon. I know JMS wants to make some advances with the new series, but perhaps things like jump capability and this rather effective weapons system should have been upgrades made in the future (assuming there is a future).
A timeline of ship development would help alot to sort out some of these questions. Size issue aside, I still feel like the Liandra should lack Jump Point capability if it is all original equipment. It's pre-vorlon tech. for crying out loud, it's not supposed to be as cool as a white star!
laugh.gif


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"Humanity IS my business"
or the always popular
"You can get farther with a kind word and a 2 b four, than you can with just a kind word"
 
Well this is a few years after B5 remember. It's possible that jump engines were minaturized even further and that the Liandra was equipped with one of them. Same goes for weapons. There are a few ways JMS can explain these things, hopefully he'll get the chance.

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Alec McClymont
3D Artist - GVFX
"Something is only impossible until it's not."
 
One magazine I have shows the Whitestars as being the same length as the Titanic. The spaceship is certainly too big to enter Babylon 5.

The Whitestars may have a gun that is say 10 times a strong as the Liandra's. The cost being that it can only fire forwards.

I wonder how much fuel the Whitestars use? Fast machines tend to use a lot of fuel. This makes operating them very expensive.

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Andrew Swallow
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slade:
Well this is a few years after B5 remember. It's possible that jump engines were minaturized even further and that the Liandra was equipped with one of them. Same goes for weapons. There are a few ways JMS can explain these things, hopefully he'll get the chance.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time wise Rangers is set about half way through (mythical) Season 8. The Liandra is about 20 years old. That means that it was built before Babylon 5, probably in the middle of the Earth-Minbari War.

The Vorlons had made contact with the Minbari but were keeping a very low profile. Most members of the Grey Council did not know of the Vorlons return. The technology transfers are unlikely to have started at that time.

From the above I believe that the Liandra is a pure Minbari ship.



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Andrew Swallow
 
So, Liandra was built before the Earth-Minbar war, so what? The U.S.S. New Jersey Iowa were built during WWII, before nukes and effective cruise missles existed. Didn't stop the two ships from being retrofit with both in time for the gulf war. A warship hull is an expensive proposition, but properly maintained it will remain seaworthy for years.

As long as you keep upgrading the weapons and electronics (and the propulsion system if practical - a number of coal-burning ships were upgraded to oil-fired propulsion plants in the early part of the century) you can keep a ship in service as a effective weapons-system for many, many, years. Liandra needn't have started out life with the same engines she has now.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
As to the size/jump engine capability:

1) The Liandra may be larger than the Whitestar and stil have a much smaller crew complement. For example, the Whitestar has a blend of Vorlon and Minbari technology and thus may have MUCH more efficient engines than the Liandra and thus be able to be smaller in size(thus fulfilling the 'smallest ship with jump engines' argument) while still having a larger crew.
The Liandra may be a small ship in size and in crew but still be larger than the Whitestar, but much of that may be used to produce the energy required for the jump engines.
2)A Minbari never lies, but they do not tell the whole truth either, and they certainly would not have to correct the ignorance of a leader of another race.(ie:// Sheriden's possible comments)

CR

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
As long as you keep upgrading the weapons and electronics (and the propulsion system if practical - a number of coal-burning ships were upgraded to oil-fired propulsion plants in the early part of the century) you can keep a ship in service as a effective weapons-system for many, many, years. Liandra needn't have started out life with the same engines she has now.


[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Liandra was described as a rust bucket, not the normal description given to something that has had a major upgrade. Although rust bucket could have been one of JMS's misdirections.

The Liandra would have been sized to contain the old type of engines. This would have made her bigger than the Whitestars. She may have some nice new store rooms.

The modern equivalent of the Liandra is the U2 spy plane or a special forces helicopter. The U2 was very fast but had no weapons. Special forces helicopters may be stealthy but only have small weapons. They are designed to kill ground troops who got in the way rather than dog fight a fighter.

The Liandra could have some very sophisticated sensors possibly even more so than the Whitestars. The Whitestars were primary designed to operate in space so they may not be too good at say searching underground. Finding hidden military bases could be a major role for the Liandra.

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Andrew Swallow
 
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