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Fahrenheit 9/11 (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter Ninja_Squirrel
- Start date
cvacarrier
New member
As to the Kyoto treaty, the Constitution of the United States gives the President the authority to enter into negotiations with other nations but any treaty must be ratified by the Senate before it can become law.
The Clinton administration signed the treaty but never submitted it to the Senate for ratification. Why? Because the Senate had passed a resolution condemning the Kyoto Treaty by a margin of 95 to ZERO!
President Bush, utilizing his MBA education, decided that he would not waste time in trying to get the Senate to ratify Kyoto. If we weren't going to ratify by act or practice, then why not be honest and take it off the table?
BTW - if no Senator voted against the resolution to condemn Kyoto, why aren't they being villified for their vote?
I wonder how many nations have signed and ratified Kyoto? Of those nations that have not, why aren't they being chastised for their failure to save the Earth?
The Clinton administration signed the treaty but never submitted it to the Senate for ratification. Why? Because the Senate had passed a resolution condemning the Kyoto Treaty by a margin of 95 to ZERO!
President Bush, utilizing his MBA education, decided that he would not waste time in trying to get the Senate to ratify Kyoto. If we weren't going to ratify by act or practice, then why not be honest and take it off the table?
BTW - if no Senator voted against the resolution to condemn Kyoto, why aren't they being villified for their vote?
I wonder how many nations have signed and ratified Kyoto? Of those nations that have not, why aren't they being chastised for their failure to save the Earth?
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I debated starting a new thread for this, but didn't...
The Law Of Unintended Consequences seems to have caught up with Fidel Castro, re: F 9/11. According to an item on CNN, Castro has been showing the film all over Cuba, and running a pirated copy on TV, too. It has produced long lines, and the low opinion of GWB that Castro hoped for, but, it has also produced an unexpected reaction, in the Cubans who see it. They are taking it as a very strong message that in the US, we can criticize, and even ridicule, our leaders, publicly, in the movies, whereever, and get away with it, and not go to prison! Many Cubans commented to that effect... "we could never do that here" and so forth. Maybe Fidel shot himself in the foot this time... it would be truly amazing if Moore's film helped oust a tyrant there, and here too...
The Law Of Unintended Consequences seems to have caught up with Fidel Castro, re: F 9/11. According to an item on CNN, Castro has been showing the film all over Cuba, and running a pirated copy on TV, too. It has produced long lines, and the low opinion of GWB that Castro hoped for, but, it has also produced an unexpected reaction, in the Cubans who see it. They are taking it as a very strong message that in the US, we can criticize, and even ridicule, our leaders, publicly, in the movies, whereever, and get away with it, and not go to prison! Many Cubans commented to that effect... "we could never do that here" and so forth. Maybe Fidel shot himself in the foot this time... it would be truly amazing if Moore's film helped oust a tyrant there, and here too...
I read a headline somewhere that Fahrenheit 9/11 has been banned in Kuwait.
I saw 9/11 yesterday. I didn't expect that many people would go and see it. It was a mid-afternoon, weekday session, and quite often you're lucky if you get four or five people in the cinema for those sessions. [I remember when I saw the first "Spiderman" movie, I was the only person in the theatre!] And to be honest, I didn't think that there would be much interest in 9/11 in what the Bushies were up to in America.
Well, I was wrong - the cinema was almost half full.
I already knew much of what was going to be in the film, and I knew about most of the stuff that Moore was talking about [I've been doing a crash course on the Bushies]. Still, it did come as a shock. The sight of George Bush, minutes before he goes on air to tell America that he's gone to war against Iraq, sitting there, wriggling his eyebrows and making jokes - was that for real? Did he have no concept that of the fact that he wzs sending Americans to die? Somehow I couldn't imagine Roosevelt behaving like that when he went on the radio to tell America that they were going to war after Pearl Harbour. When we came to the part where Bush talks about Terrorism, and then says 'now watch this drive', my mother muttered 'you stupid ... [unmentionable]!
And the sight of all those bodies in Iraq left beside the side of the road ... and those young soldiers talking about how they liked to play heavy rock music in their tanks as they went into battle ... it was like it was all some video game to them - I guess it was. And of course, John Ashcroft singing - what next? Iraq: The Musical?
I'm pretty cynical, it takes a lot to disturb me. But this film did. Yeah, it was manipulative - but the Bushies have been manipulating people for years with all the powers of the state at their disposal. And yes, there was the odd bit that did make me laugh - Moore sure knows how to use humour to get his point across.
Now, if we can get Moore and journalist John Pilger to do a film together ....
BTW, can anyone recommend any good books about the Bush or American politics. I have read a few, but would like to know more. I have read:
Bushwhacked: Life in George Bush's America, The Bush-Haters Handbook, The President of Good and Evil, The Lies of George W Bush, Big Lies, the Bush Dyslexicon and I'm in the middle of "The Politics of Truth".
And could someone please explain just how the hell the American government works? What's the difference between Congress and the Senate? If you don't want to answer in this forum [which would take it a little OT], e-mail me at bab5nutz@hotmail.com
Thank-you.
I saw 9/11 yesterday. I didn't expect that many people would go and see it. It was a mid-afternoon, weekday session, and quite often you're lucky if you get four or five people in the cinema for those sessions. [I remember when I saw the first "Spiderman" movie, I was the only person in the theatre!] And to be honest, I didn't think that there would be much interest in 9/11 in what the Bushies were up to in America.
Well, I was wrong - the cinema was almost half full.
I already knew much of what was going to be in the film, and I knew about most of the stuff that Moore was talking about [I've been doing a crash course on the Bushies]. Still, it did come as a shock. The sight of George Bush, minutes before he goes on air to tell America that he's gone to war against Iraq, sitting there, wriggling his eyebrows and making jokes - was that for real? Did he have no concept that of the fact that he wzs sending Americans to die? Somehow I couldn't imagine Roosevelt behaving like that when he went on the radio to tell America that they were going to war after Pearl Harbour. When we came to the part where Bush talks about Terrorism, and then says 'now watch this drive', my mother muttered 'you stupid ... [unmentionable]!
And the sight of all those bodies in Iraq left beside the side of the road ... and those young soldiers talking about how they liked to play heavy rock music in their tanks as they went into battle ... it was like it was all some video game to them - I guess it was. And of course, John Ashcroft singing - what next? Iraq: The Musical?
I'm pretty cynical, it takes a lot to disturb me. But this film did. Yeah, it was manipulative - but the Bushies have been manipulating people for years with all the powers of the state at their disposal. And yes, there was the odd bit that did make me laugh - Moore sure knows how to use humour to get his point across.
Now, if we can get Moore and journalist John Pilger to do a film together ....
BTW, can anyone recommend any good books about the Bush or American politics. I have read a few, but would like to know more. I have read:
Bushwhacked: Life in George Bush's America, The Bush-Haters Handbook, The President of Good and Evil, The Lies of George W Bush, Big Lies, the Bush Dyslexicon and I'm in the middle of "The Politics of Truth".
And could someone please explain just how the hell the American government works? What's the difference between Congress and the Senate? If you don't want to answer in this forum [which would take it a little OT], e-mail me at bab5nutz@hotmail.com
Thank-you.
hypatia
Regular
Yes, it's true it has been banned in Kuwait. There is a brief article about that at MM's website:
Michael Moore
As far as the "manipulation of the news" why aren't people screaming that our nightly news is now and has been manipulated? Why doesn't MM show the "other side"? Because we've been spoon fed the "other side" for years now, every night, morning and noontime. Everytime we turn on television or radio news.
His point is: it was long time for this side of the news to be shown. Yea, Bush boy seems awfully removed from all of this, doesn't he? Frighteningly "above" it all, doesn't he?
I'm glad to hear it's still packing in crowds even in a mid-week matinee showing.
Michael Moore
As far as the "manipulation of the news" why aren't people screaming that our nightly news is now and has been manipulated? Why doesn't MM show the "other side"? Because we've been spoon fed the "other side" for years now, every night, morning and noontime. Everytime we turn on television or radio news.
His point is: it was long time for this side of the news to be shown. Yea, Bush boy seems awfully removed from all of this, doesn't he? Frighteningly "above" it all, doesn't he?
I'm glad to hear it's still packing in crowds even in a mid-week matinee showing.
GKarsEye
Regular
Another good book is House of Bush, House of Saud, which goes into the Bush-Saudi connection touched upon in the beginning of F9/11.
I don't know what country you're from, but the as to how Congress works, it's our analog to the British Parliament. And like it has a House of Commons and a House of Lords, our Congress consists of a Senate and a House of Representatives. Each state always has two senators, while the number of representatives depends on the population. This solution came about to appease large states, who felt they should have more power, and small states, who feared being ignored. There are 430 representatives and, of course, 50*2=100 senators. The vice president of the US (currently Dick Cheney) acts as president of the Senate, a largely ceremonial task, but casts deciding votes in the event of a tie. One Representive of the majority party is selected to be the Speaker of the House (and is also second in the line of succession to the president should he not be able to complete his term). Currently, that post is held by Dennist Hastert.
Right now, both houses have slight Republican majorities (the same political party as George Bush).
Probably more important than the election of the president in both the November and 2002 mid-term elections are the Congress, because both houses are up for grab, especially the Senate.
I don't know what country you're from, but the as to how Congress works, it's our analog to the British Parliament. And like it has a House of Commons and a House of Lords, our Congress consists of a Senate and a House of Representatives. Each state always has two senators, while the number of representatives depends on the population. This solution came about to appease large states, who felt they should have more power, and small states, who feared being ignored. There are 430 representatives and, of course, 50*2=100 senators. The vice president of the US (currently Dick Cheney) acts as president of the Senate, a largely ceremonial task, but casts deciding votes in the event of a tie. One Representive of the majority party is selected to be the Speaker of the House (and is also second in the line of succession to the president should he not be able to complete his term). Currently, that post is held by Dennist Hastert.
Right now, both houses have slight Republican majorities (the same political party as George Bush).
Probably more important than the election of the president in both the November and 2002 mid-term elections are the Congress, because both houses are up for grab, especially the Senate.
hypatia
Regular
And IMHO at least, even more important than all of this is the President's power to appoint Supreme Court Judges. For life, these appointments are until the Judge either retires or dies.
Does anyone know where a list of the recent 5/4 rulings in the Supreme Court can be found? Just to give an illustration as to just how politics are most definitely a major factor in the courts?
Does anyone know where a list of the recent 5/4 rulings in the Supreme Court can be found? Just to give an illustration as to just how politics are most definitely a major factor in the courts?
I've read the article since my last post here.
I heard on the radio today what the top five films at the Boxoffice in NZ are. Fahrenheit 9/11 was ranked fifth. Normally, a documentrary film would have gone to the arthouse circuit [yes, we have them too], but both the two main cinema chains, Hoyts and Readings are showing it.
I actually saw MM on the News about a week ago, being interviewed by Kiwi journalists. In the interview, MM thanked NZ for not getting involved in the Iraq war.
Maybe, NZ does not get the news saturation that America gets. We do have Sky [I guess you guys call them cable channels], but most people here watch either TV1 or TV3 news [yes they really are called that], and both these channels broadcast nationally. There is also another national TV channel called Prime, and there are a number of local channels. So, perhaps being outside of what is going on in America, we see things slightly differently, being not so tied in and being as invested as Americans.
Of course, many Kiwis, as many in the Western world do, get a lot of their information from the Internet. I certainly do. Once upon a time, if I had wanted to find out about something, I would have gone to a library to find out. Now, as long as I know the right criteria, I can look up things on the Net, and find out what I want to know within minutes. Just the other day, I wanted to get to a library across town. I looked up it's location on the Net, and then went to the bus timetable website, found a map of bus routes, and found out which bus I needed to take to get there. A couple of years ago, I would have had to have dragged out a map, looked up the reference numbers, and then phoned the bus company.
Right back on-topic. One of the books I read described Bush as a 'spoiled frat boy'. I have gotten the distinct feeling from what I've seen that Bush has absolutely no idea of how ordinary people live, or what their struggles are. He reminds me of the Romanovs, the Russian Royal family. They lived in great splendour and luxury, and had absolutely no idea how ordinary Russians lived. And everyone knows what happened to the Romanovs. I remember once reading a story about Bush's father, how he once visited a supermarket as part of his public duties, and he had no idea what a barcode scanner was for. And of course, there is Dubya's joke about his support base being the 'haves and the have mores'.
I like Moore. I know that a lot of people don't - well - no-one can be liked by everyone. And the fact that so many people are mad at him, tells me that he is getting through t people.
UPDATE: I seem to remember reading that Clarence Thomas [the judge who was accused of sexual harrassment in the 80s] is on the Supreme Court. I also think that there is a guy named Estrada [no, I don't think it's the guy from CHiPs]. I was reading about them a couple of weeks back - but I cannot remember most of the details, except that these judges are conservative and pro-life.
Now, I'm gonna have to go and look it up!
I heard on the radio today what the top five films at the Boxoffice in NZ are. Fahrenheit 9/11 was ranked fifth. Normally, a documentrary film would have gone to the arthouse circuit [yes, we have them too], but both the two main cinema chains, Hoyts and Readings are showing it.
I actually saw MM on the News about a week ago, being interviewed by Kiwi journalists. In the interview, MM thanked NZ for not getting involved in the Iraq war.
Maybe, NZ does not get the news saturation that America gets. We do have Sky [I guess you guys call them cable channels], but most people here watch either TV1 or TV3 news [yes they really are called that], and both these channels broadcast nationally. There is also another national TV channel called Prime, and there are a number of local channels. So, perhaps being outside of what is going on in America, we see things slightly differently, being not so tied in and being as invested as Americans.
Of course, many Kiwis, as many in the Western world do, get a lot of their information from the Internet. I certainly do. Once upon a time, if I had wanted to find out about something, I would have gone to a library to find out. Now, as long as I know the right criteria, I can look up things on the Net, and find out what I want to know within minutes. Just the other day, I wanted to get to a library across town. I looked up it's location on the Net, and then went to the bus timetable website, found a map of bus routes, and found out which bus I needed to take to get there. A couple of years ago, I would have had to have dragged out a map, looked up the reference numbers, and then phoned the bus company.
Right back on-topic. One of the books I read described Bush as a 'spoiled frat boy'. I have gotten the distinct feeling from what I've seen that Bush has absolutely no idea of how ordinary people live, or what their struggles are. He reminds me of the Romanovs, the Russian Royal family. They lived in great splendour and luxury, and had absolutely no idea how ordinary Russians lived. And everyone knows what happened to the Romanovs. I remember once reading a story about Bush's father, how he once visited a supermarket as part of his public duties, and he had no idea what a barcode scanner was for. And of course, there is Dubya's joke about his support base being the 'haves and the have mores'.
I like Moore. I know that a lot of people don't - well - no-one can be liked by everyone. And the fact that so many people are mad at him, tells me that he is getting through t people.
UPDATE: I seem to remember reading that Clarence Thomas [the judge who was accused of sexual harrassment in the 80s] is on the Supreme Court. I also think that there is a guy named Estrada [no, I don't think it's the guy from CHiPs]. I was reading about them a couple of weeks back - but I cannot remember most of the details, except that these judges are conservative and pro-life.
Now, I'm gonna have to go and look it up!
Thanks - your government doesn't actually sound all that much bigger than the NZ government, considering that America is a bit bigger than NZ.
Here, we have two main parties, Labour and National. Labour is tradtionally socialist in its politics, although it has become much more business-oriented in the last 20 years. National is somewhat more to the right. We also have other political parties, such as United Future [further to the right of National], Christian Heritage [our version of the Fundamentalists], NZ First [even further to the right of National], and the Greens [a party with a strong environmental platform] We have a system called MMP [mixed member proportional] Basically, NZ is divided into 60 electorates or seats. Each Kiwi gets two votes at election time - which is every three years. You can vote for your local MP {member of parliament] to represent you, and you have a party vote. So, if you like a particular candidate, but prefer the politics of another party, you can have both. The party with the biggest majority then becomes the first part of the new government. But it doesn't quite end there. The party with the most votes has to choose another party to negotigate with so that it can form a majority government. This can take weeks sometimes.
Right now, we have a Labour-Green government. [Kiwis can get rather passionate about the environment and conservation]
Way OT, I know, but that is how the Kiwi government works.
Here, we have two main parties, Labour and National. Labour is tradtionally socialist in its politics, although it has become much more business-oriented in the last 20 years. National is somewhat more to the right. We also have other political parties, such as United Future [further to the right of National], Christian Heritage [our version of the Fundamentalists], NZ First [even further to the right of National], and the Greens [a party with a strong environmental platform] We have a system called MMP [mixed member proportional] Basically, NZ is divided into 60 electorates or seats. Each Kiwi gets two votes at election time - which is every three years. You can vote for your local MP {member of parliament] to represent you, and you have a party vote. So, if you like a particular candidate, but prefer the politics of another party, you can have both. The party with the biggest majority then becomes the first part of the new government. But it doesn't quite end there. The party with the most votes has to choose another party to negotigate with so that it can form a majority government. This can take weeks sometimes.
Right now, we have a Labour-Green government. [Kiwis can get rather passionate about the environment and conservation]
Way OT, I know, but that is how the Kiwi government works.
colonyearth
Regular
I just wanted to say...the "spoiled brat" concept of GWB is completely accurate. He was raised from birth in an extremely wealthy family. He was a rich spoiled kid from the start, which makes him think he's better than other people, and now he's the President which only serves to boost his already bloated ego and head.
No...he has no clue how middle and lower class people live...not one.
CE
No...he has no clue how middle and lower class people live...not one.
CE
colonyearth
Regular
Kerry might have come from a substantial background, but I've never gotten the impression that he thinks himself above the average person. He has been in the trenches, but figuratively and literally.
Bush is in his own arrogant world.
CE
colonyearth
Regular
True, he was not raised as wealthy as GWB. Kerry married into great wealth when he married Teresa.
Wouldn't most of the men who have ever been President of the US qualify as 'spoiled brats'? Okay, there are exceptions. I know that Clinton came from comparatively humble circumstances; And of course, there is the most famous example of all - Lincoln. But others such as Franlin Roosevelt - he was definitely an American Prince like Bush. But there, the similarities end. I don't think that Bush has ever had to deal with anything worse than a split nail, Roosevelt was crippled by polio. Okay, dealing with this was made easier by the fact that he was well-off. I also understand that much of the credit for what Roosevelt did actually belongs to his wife, Eleanor. From what I've read, in her concern for working people, women and especially minorities, she was way ahead of her time.
But getting back to Bush. I understand that Bush's family is WASP all the way - I think that they might even have some blood connection with the British royal family. Bush's grandfather, Prescott apparently had business dealings with the Nazis that caused him to come under suspicion when America went to war with Germany. Okay,in all fairness, GWB cannot be held responsible for the deeds or misdeeds of his grandfather. If courts started holding people responsible for the crimes of their ancestors, then there would be very few people left alive!
The story of Kerry's paternal family is the story of many immigrants to America. His paternal grandparents came from what was then Germany. Immigrating to America, they went into business. In those days, it was much easier to get on in America if you were Christian and if you had an Anglo-sounding name. So, the Kohn family became the more American sounding Kerry, and they converted from Judasism to Catholicism. On an interesting sidenote, Kerry's grandfather took his own life under mysterious circumstances.
No denying that Kerry was born into far better circumstances than most Americans. Maybe he wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth - but it definitely wasn't a wooden one, either. However, unlike the warhawks of the Republicans, such as Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft and company, Kerry did not try and get out of enlisting after college. He did his time, and was recognised for it.
But getting back to Bush. I understand that Bush's family is WASP all the way - I think that they might even have some blood connection with the British royal family. Bush's grandfather, Prescott apparently had business dealings with the Nazis that caused him to come under suspicion when America went to war with Germany. Okay,in all fairness, GWB cannot be held responsible for the deeds or misdeeds of his grandfather. If courts started holding people responsible for the crimes of their ancestors, then there would be very few people left alive!
The story of Kerry's paternal family is the story of many immigrants to America. His paternal grandparents came from what was then Germany. Immigrating to America, they went into business. In those days, it was much easier to get on in America if you were Christian and if you had an Anglo-sounding name. So, the Kohn family became the more American sounding Kerry, and they converted from Judasism to Catholicism. On an interesting sidenote, Kerry's grandfather took his own life under mysterious circumstances.
No denying that Kerry was born into far better circumstances than most Americans. Maybe he wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth - but it definitely wasn't a wooden one, either. However, unlike the warhawks of the Republicans, such as Bush, Cheney, Ashcroft and company, Kerry did not try and get out of enlisting after college. He did his time, and was recognised for it.
Za_Ha_Dum
Regular
First of all..... US citizens always forget the BEST ever "Public Server" of modern US presidents.... Mr. Jimmy Carter. This president was really the BEST as a HUMAN BEING.
US citizens forget about him because of the MEDIA power. I was very young but I can recall that in the US the media started to suggest that Jimmy Carter was fool and coward. Just because he did not wanted to provoke a war toward Iran.
I just made this introduction to say that even Jimmy Carter, you and I for sure can have some mistakes during lifetime. Nobody is perfect. We, unfortunately easily fall into vanity, pride, etc... So botton line is:
If you want to dig into Kerry´s life, for sure you will find some bad things. But, come on...... We can see a much worse situation in the case of GWB. The President of the USA used to be a drunker, destroyed some family business, it is scaring the whole world (with war and intolerance), lied about many many things, very poor in general knowledge and culture, I assume that he even speaks poor english (this I do not know but I heard once)...... So you guys are still worried about Kerry that, perhaps, f*cked his maid?
I rather have a horny US president f*cking some babes, than have an US president f*cking every human being life
Have a good day
Cadu
Zahadum
US citizens forget about him because of the MEDIA power. I was very young but I can recall that in the US the media started to suggest that Jimmy Carter was fool and coward. Just because he did not wanted to provoke a war toward Iran.
I just made this introduction to say that even Jimmy Carter, you and I for sure can have some mistakes during lifetime. Nobody is perfect. We, unfortunately easily fall into vanity, pride, etc... So botton line is:
If you want to dig into Kerry´s life, for sure you will find some bad things. But, come on...... We can see a much worse situation in the case of GWB. The President of the USA used to be a drunker, destroyed some family business, it is scaring the whole world (with war and intolerance), lied about many many things, very poor in general knowledge and culture, I assume that he even speaks poor english (this I do not know but I heard once)...... So you guys are still worried about Kerry that, perhaps, f*cked his maid?
I rather have a horny US president f*cking some babes, than have an US president f*cking every human being life
Have a good day
Cadu
Zahadum
