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Fahrenheit 9/11 (SPOILERS)

His actual Presidency did not do much for the Country in the areas it was needed.

That´s humankind problem..... We are always thinking locally, instead of thinking GLOBALLY.

If you guys only think in YOUR conviniences as a country, how come you disaprove a politician PERSONNAL convinience? The principles are the same, it is just a matter of scale.
And that is exactly what GWB is doing. For sure, if someday somebody decides to investigate about GWB government it will find out the MOST corrupted US Government ever. Where is the US$ 1 Billion? They must have paid many politicians and partners.

Jimmy Carter did a great job thinking not just in the USA. Instead, he thought as a whole. As a great leader. Great spirit. Wise. If people are happy in India, China, Brasil, France, etc.....than USA should be happy too. This way of thinking is A MUST for a country that is leading the planet....

We cannot think in terms of "In order to have a better life style I must sacrifice others"....Otherwise, the "sacrified" people will start hating the ones who are fine and happy..... Just ask a palestinian what he thinks about an US entrepeneur who produces bombs, ad is living in wealth. Great girls, whisky, gambling, enjoying life...

Regards,

Cadu
Zahadum
 
I think one major argument against Carter was that he didn't consider national security to be paramount. When you're up against the heirs of Joseph Stalin it has to be a major concern.

Also Carter was at least partially responsible for the Iran Hostage crisis. If he hadn't let the Shah into the country, then the crisis might have been averted or at least reduced considerably. Of course if he hadn't let the Shah into the country, the old man would have died. But what's one life against the will of a country? Iran wanted him dead, and with some cause. Then Carter allowed the rescue operation to go forward, which resulted in the Desert One debacle and the deaths of six American soldiers for nothing.

Carter's team did manage to bring the hostages home, although as it happened on Reagan's watch Reagan largely got the credit.

Carter was a good man, but I rank him with Herbert Hoover. Wonderful men, who used/use their power after leaving the Presidency to great good. But while in office, they weren't the perfect men for the job.

Even still, I'd vote for Carter over either Bush or Kerry, this year.

(And Z_H_D? Another gentle reminder about capital letters? I don't mean to persecute you, but italics are your friend.)
 
Kosh fan,

Sorry... I will try to change my habits. I am used to use capital letters to emphasize something...

Once I watched a documentary in Discovery channel saying about Air Force One. During the employees statements, one of them said that Jimmy Carter was the only president since first Air Force One that did not allowed to have "gifts" from companies. Example: He did not want to have Coca-Cola beverages load donated by CC Company. The guy also said that Carter´s family meals in the Air Force One was not a fancy one (compared to Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush, Clinton).

I believe this statement tells you something about this man..

Cadu
Zahadum
 
Never said he wasn't honorable, and upstanding, and so forth.

But though it pains me to admit it, sometimes when you're up against devious and unscrupulous people, having an honorable man in charge does more harm than good. He'll keep playing by his rules when the other side has broken them all, and is in fact using his rules against him. Times like that, we may well want a slightly unscrupulous leader.

Bleacch, I'm getting conservative in my old age....
 
Kosh Fan,

It is really sad to read such thoughts. Perhaps we have no hope for humankind since "that´s how life should be".

I remind you G´Kar and Londo´s fate. Londo took poor decisions. G Kar was noble.

I agree with you that in short terms decisions could be better an unscrupulous leader. You get faster results. but in the long term, it is a disaster. Take the nowday example:

GWB - Achieved everything (I mean huge goals) he wanted during his 4 years mandate. It was fast enough. However now you have more foreigners that hate USA. Violence and human misery have improved lately. Golden years only for the weapon industry. Everybodyelse screwed.

Jimmy Carter - Nobel Prize........

Best regards,

Cadu
Zahadum

PS: No caps letter ;) ;)
 
Carter's team did manage to bring the hostages home, although as it happened on Reagan's watch Reagan largely got the credit.

Uh, wasn't that the whole arms-for-hostages thing? If we are going to criticize a president in regards to the hostage situation, I'd say that's the larger criticism.

I will agree that Carter made a much better ex-president than president, however. I have been astounded at his ability to do what the administrations in charge could not do. And I am including Clinton's admin. in this.

Carter is a great people-person, and seems to respect other cultures far better than most presidents and people. :cool:
 
I will agree that Carter made a much better ex-president than president, however. I have been astounded at his ability to do what the administrations in charge could not do. And I am including Clinton's admin. in this.
{snip}
When negotiating, the first thing the US President does is to aim a nuclear missile at the other side’s capital. Everything he says has a silent OR ELSE[/B/]. This is not nice.

Ex-President Carter is no longer threatening to kill your family, so peace no longer means surrender. The mafia don has gone.
 
But it makes you wonder why Carter is so much better at it than any other ex-president, doesn't it? :)
Carter is a nice man who genuinely believes in peace. As for the other ex-presidents - No Comment.
 
But it makes you wonder why Carter is so much better at it than any other ex-president, doesn't it? :)
Carter is a nice man who genuinely believes in peace. As for the other ex-presidents - No Comment.

HEY!!! Clinton believes in Peace. Oh...waitaminute, that's piece, uh...nevermind. ;) :D
 
I gather there was a legal challenge to F 9/11. If considered to be the endorsement of a candidate it might not have been able to air ads after July 30th. The ruling is "case dismissed":
F 9/11 goes on.
 
Well it was Dismissed as long as the ads don't mention either Candiate by name, or show them. Why all the ads now are of reviews, and fan reactions coming out of the theater.
 
It is a good Ruling as long as the tenants are held, the original Fahrenheit 9/11 ads didn't meet it.
Now have a bit more to say
Firstly here is a Rather interesting Review though the guy is pretty out farther left than the moore portrayed in Fahrenheit 9/11 (though honestly think Moore probably would agree with everything this guy says politically) here
Some part of the guys views just make me cringe but he is honest and his suggestions would defiantly make 9/11 more of a timeless film instead of dated as soon as bush is out of office. Now place think he got wrong was calling the part showing the monkeys that were offered by Morroco , racist is a bit of a stretch since Morroco did offer to send monkeys, MONKEYS!. And alot of this guys complaints are far left and that Moore just attacked the Bush and not the whole system (ala American empire) and the obvious Absence of Israel in the movie, and out right calling the movie even conservative. Though In Moore defense sure he made the movie for the purpose of defeat bush , instead of a serious change to the system. The Alienating Jews, and disfranchising voters that neither of the major parties is good would really hurt trying to defeat bush. And then the support of the troops at the end would also help make it political message.

Now here is a interesting good articlebasicly premise is case study of the Propaganda in Fahrenheit 9/11 and is a very interesting article and probably can even learn quite a bit of the Principals taught in first few courses of college Psychology, sociology courses. Its long though about 26 pages but very good read and strongly suggest it, though as he says

He found that humans don’t pay much attention to argument validity - rather, they pay attention to the argument’s claim or conclusion, and how closely that claim or conclusion matches their prejudices. If a poorly argued message concludes with what a person already believes is true, he’ll buy it. On the other hand, most powerfully reasoned arguments with ample supporting evidence will be rejected if the conclusion doesn’t match what the listener wants to hear.

Though most of this guys stuff is arguing that its propaganda not the voracity of all the claims though he covers quite a few , but uses a lot of the stuff from the 51 deceits article but has other stuff, and generally fills in the glaring omissions some what like the first article did just not from a Far left view point.

I probably have more to say later but figure throw this out for reading. Though in reference to the 1st one that Professor teaches Potential Journalist? Wonder how good university of Texas Journalism school is rank and how many of his students are writing for Pravda or something.

And ah really have to say “History’s greatest Monster” (Simpson reference to carter) wasn’t that great a president for foreign policy, especially with the case of Iran, didn’t support the shah early enough and when he did was too late and then really had a mixed response after the shah was evicted. Well the shah was a very good friend to the USA, that at times during the carter administration was left out on the door (yeah the shah wasn’t quite the best of guys and a dictator, but he is better than the Current Iranian Leadership) and the loss of Iran and the shah had probably one of the root causes with a lot of our added problems in the middle east mainly Iraq and the Over reliance on Saudi Arabia, and even Osama. Say more some other time.. Though used to have a Government teacher that always said Carter Listened to the wrong foreign policy guy and ignored the other guy. Though as Carter the man nothing wrong with him stand up man who did a lot of good after geting out of office.
 
He found that humans don’t pay much attention to argument validity - rather, they pay attention to the argument’s claim or conclusion, and how closely that claim or conclusion matches their prejudices. If a poorly argued message concludes with what a person already believes is true, he’ll buy it. On the other hand, most powerfully reasoned arguments with ample supporting evidence will be rejected if the conclusion doesn’t match what the listener wants to hear.

Tragically true.
 
One thing Carter did was to put in place a plan to make the US energy self-sufficient. Unfortunately, Reagan cancelled it, almost immediately upon taking office. If the plan had stayed in place, the world would be quite different for the US today!

Carter's foreign policy was the radical idea that we would practice what we preach, in other words, human rights, and democracy, would become the major factors in our foreign policy. This was bound to be problematic, considering that the US had installed so many brutal dictatorships around the world, in the name of fighting communism. So, when the Iranians rose up, and it became clear that either the Shah would leave, or there would be a blood bath, Carter wisely did his best to arrange a peaceful exit, and transition of power, instead of sending in US forces, to slaughter people trying to free their country, as most US presidents would have done. He offered only vocal support for the Shah, which he felt obliged to do, since he was our 'ally.'

Unfortunately, the Iranians were in no mood to realize that he was doing his best for them, and when he, for humanitarian reasons, let the Shah into the US, they took the totally unprecedented, unpredictable action of taking over our embassy. Carter immediately sent in Ramsey Clark, known to oppose US imperialism, to negotiate. The Iranians wouldn't talk to him. Two Iranian revolutionary leaders, Abolhassan Bani Sadr, and Sadeg Ghotzbadeh, WANTED to negotiate, but Kohmeni, and the students, who actually held the hostages, wouldn't allow it. Ghotzbadeh was later executed for advocating normalizing relations with the US, and Bani Sadr fled to Paris.

Carter, the man who invented the idea of a US rapid reaction force, then started to plan a rescue attempt. Unfortunately, he had no way of knowing that traitors Ollie North, and James Secord, later of Iran Contra infamy, would sabotage the mission, by ordering that the sand filters be left off the helicopters' engine intakes, putting too many out of commission to do the job, so the mission was aborted. And, Reagan's representatives negotiated with the Iranians to keep the hostages until Carter was out of office. I sure would like to know what they got in return. Carter was a great president, and is a great man.
 
An interesting assessment, Jade Jaguar, but I'd like to see some sources on your accusation of sabotage by North and Secord. As I understood it the rescue force got caught in a sandstorm and lives were lost, leading to the mission being scrubbed. It was an act of nature that ended the mission, not human activity.

But I admit I have not studied the subject in great detail. You probably know more than I.
 
Jade Jaguar,

Thaks for your interesting post. I was not quite familiar with the details. However as Kosh Fan suggested would be useful to know your source (if it is CIA use the code and name it as "PSICORP").

Carter was a great president, and is a great man.

Yes I agree....But never forget.... Majority of US citizens considered him as a coward and weak (GWB for some US citizen´s values, is the opposite, and now we can see the MESS that turned out)

Regards,

Cadu
Zahadum
 
Decal, that first link in your last post is excellent, thank you. It states my reservations of the film very well.
 
Thanks for stating that JJ. I've always felt that the whole thing was rigged to get Reagan elected. Too many coincidences...way too many.


CE
 

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