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You know, you're starting to become the master of snippage to support your own
arguments, and in doing so, stepping on my last nerve.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
Speaking of “snippage”, let’s look at your remarks in context:
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Babylon5 had all old, mature adults with great deep voices for yelling and talking
seriousely. Will LR be good with a bunch of youngins? I loved B5 for that reason; no kids, no teens, all adults.
Same here! A bunch of young, virtually unknown actors as regulars? Seems kinda weak, but maybe they'll surprise us. -- emphasis added -- J.D.
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So, you agreed with a very negative statement about the young actors, then added a very half-hearted “maybe” they’ll “surprise” us. (“Surprise” indicating that your expectation is that they’ll be bad, since you’ll be surprised if they’re good.) I dealt with the main thrust of what you said, not the afterthought.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with the general sentiment of the original poster. Then, I toned it down with
"kinda weak" which is not "as weak" as the original poster hinted at. The "maybe
they'll surprise us" ties in with your comment about the B5 cast being not very well known. Since B5 turned out great, why not B5:LotR? Also, often the way a statement is left, is the most important thing, the meaning that's meant to be conveyed. I left it on a positive note. I guess I should have put a
after "surprise us."
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When I first saw the B5 pilot, I knew Andreas from TNG, Next of Kin, and The Fugitive. … I knew Claudia from The Hidden, Bruce from Tron, Scarecrow, various westerns…
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
As with the basic cable question, you are using your own personal experience as the
“measure of all things.” For most viewers most of the B5 cast –especially for the
pilot and the first season – was virtually unknown. If you watched Dawson’s Creek or
lived in Canada you would likely have seen most of the Rangers actors.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1. The original poster
is probably from Canada (hence his "our Canadian Space Station"). Well, maybe he doesn't watch Dawson's Creek. No, I don't watch it either. I'm not in it's demographic. I suspect a majority of people in the US and Canada aren't in it's demographic either.
2. Some of the films and series I mentioned are fairly well known in the US and Canada. I'm reasonably sure that the B5 cast would be considered to be more well known right before the B5 pilot, compared to the B5:LotR cast right before their pilot, although the differences in popularity may be closer than I first suspected.
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Oh, for crying out loud, there are people in this country (the U.S.A.) who could get
the Sci-Fi channel, i.e. it is available to them but they don't subscribe to it at the
moment. It is in their power to change that condition by subscribing to the channel.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
WARNING: Argument may have shifted in flight. On the moderated newsgroup you argued that the whole problem with the Sci-Fi Channel is that it wasn’t a “basic cable”
channel (it is in many parts of the country), and that too many people who could get it didn’t because it cost too much. Now a couple of billboards are going to overcome
this reluctance. OK. But are enough of those people going to change their minds to
make a difference?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If they don't know the show is there, how are they going to be tempted to pony up for
the channel to see it?
On the moderated group we were talking about ads. on the Sci-Fi channel, and I was
saying that's not enough, because some people do not have Sci-Fi in the channel
package they currently are paying for. If they saw ads. (not just TV ads.) for stuff that's going to be coming on Sci-Fi, they might be tempted to get the channel package that has it. You need ads. outside the channel, and preferrable outside TV entirely (print ads.) to lure them in.
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Where did I say I know this? I suspect this.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
OK, I’ll rephrase the question. Instead of “And you know this, how?” let’s try, “And
you suspect this, why?” I’m still waiting to see some kind of factual basis for your
assumption that Sci-Fi is going to ignore the movie.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't say "ignore." I said I suspect they'll just run a few short ads. a few days
prior to the movie, and likely they'll only be on Sci-Fi, and it'll get lost amongst
the holiday stuff.
I've seen relatively few Sci-Fi channel ads. on other channels, except USA, the sister
station to Sci-Fi. However, I have seen lots of ads. from other stations on the
Sci-Fi channel, among them, regrettably those obnoxious "TNT Knows Drama" ads. If you watch Sci-Fi a lot, there's virtually no getting away from those things.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
(By the way, I notice that you’ve switched your target from Warner Bros. to Sci-Fi
since you found out who is responsible for the advertising.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because
you said Sci-Fi was responsible for the advertising.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Your whole previous case – a shaky one – was against Warner Bros. and based on their
alleged “history” of not supporting the show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If Warner Brothers was really supporting B5, we'd already have season packs of DVDs. We'd probably be up to Season 3 by now. Where are we? We don't even have the pilot yet, and won't for almost three more months.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
How did this “history” get transferred to Sci-Fi all of a sudden?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
How am I doing that? I'm just saying that Sci-Fi needs to advertise outside their
channel, and preferrably outside TV to reach new viewers, if they want to grow the B5
franchise, and their channel as a result.
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Alright, now it's my turn. How do you know that this isn't an effective way to promote
TV shows? If it hasn't been done, how do you know that it won't work? You're assuming
that because you've never seen them, that it's never been done and/or it never worked.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I’m playing the percentages here. I think the likelihood of your coming up with an
effective marketing scheme that none of the professionals in the TV biz have hit on in
the past 50 years is statistically small, just as the likelihood of my coming up with
one is.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe so, but what does it cost to try? How much money would they be risking on such
a venture? Sure, they might be laughed at, and they might find it embarrassing, but
they could say the fans asked for it and they thought they'd try it as a lark. If it
worked, I'm sure nobody would be laughing.
This is how things get invented sometimes.
Somebody will see a need, and think up a solution that's obvious to him/her, but that
nobody else sees.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I don’t think either of us knows enough about marketing in general or TV marketing in particular to pull that off.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The money risked in the test case would be minimal. However, the conventional
thinking is that it'll never work. Sometimes, you have to try new things. Then you may be pleasantly surprised at the result. The risk is low. Why not try?
Sometimes it takes somebody who is not in the business to see something from an angle
that the pros have never really considered, or dismissed out of hand.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
As bakana noted, a certain amount of this stuff is done at conventions and the like,
and all sorts of goodies like posters and coffee mugs are handed out to advertisers
and others to promote shows.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to the general convention attendees, the fans? Like I said, I'd
pay Warner
Brothers or Sci-Fi for 'em. I just don't want to foot the bill for a bulk purchase
just to get my own. Wouldn't other fans like to see Warner Brothers or Sci-Fi back our efforts to support the B5 universe shows. Such promotional materials provided to fans would show such backing. Right now, I publicly back the show out in the real world, and it'd be nice to have
something official looking (not homemade looking) to put on my rear bumper or rear window.
I made a design in Photoshop and printed it on transparancy film, but I have to stick it to the inside of the windows with tape. Boy does that look homemade (the adhesion method not the graphic). Sheesh! I'd never go to this trouble for any show but one in the B5 universe.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
But a studio sending out bumper stickers to promote a TV movie? Doesn’t sound likely,
and I can’t recall it being done. I suspect that someone would have tried it, or done
a bit of market research to see if it is feasible, sometime between the advent of
television and today, though.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not just to promote a TV movie. This TV movie is connected to the B5 universe. If
there was just the B5:LotR movie and there was nothing else in the B5 universe
available to watch, I'd say you're right. However, that is not the case. If people
watch the B5:LotR movie, it's likely that they'll want to watch the rest of the stuff
in the B5 universe. When you first saw B5 episode, didn't it make you want to watch
another? B5 is kind of like a Lay's Potato Chip, that way, unless the viewer is
determined not to like it.
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That was TNT. I'm talking about, Sci-Fi, NOW, not TNT in the past. There's no reason
to suspect that Sci-Fi will do as TNT did.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
And no reason to suspect that they won’t, especially if Rangers becomes a series.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The "Rangers becomming a series" doesn't figure into it. We're talking about
promotional material for the pilot, not the series.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
They’ve certainly put a serious promotional effort behind Farscape and Lexx. And
Sci-Fi isn’t doing anything now because the movie won’t air until next January.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1. You've got to think ahead. It would take time for Sci-Fi to generate the commercials and promotional materials. Even if they started now, they'd have nothing for us fans before November.
2. If they did do stuff that we fans could buy from them (like bumperstickers or
window decals), it's best for us to have the materials well in advance of the air
date. The longer we have the stuff, the more people are going to see them. If we get the materials a few days before the airdate, it's a waste.
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A smiley with a sarcastic remark, good one.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Glad you liked it. Look, the technique is called reductio ad absurdum – taking an
argument to its logical (and absurd) conclusion. They always tend to sound a bit
sarcastic. The smiley was there to indicate that I didn’t mean it maliciously. It was
an invitation for you to laugh along with me when you saw where your argument was
headed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK, that wasn't how I took it. It looked like you were trying to be sarcastic to me,
but appear to the rest of the group like you weren't being sarcastic. That way it'd
look like I was unreasonable for being
about it.
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Why, immediately?
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Well, according to your argument, there won’t any advertising until late December. So in your scenario these billboards are going to go up only a few days before the movie airs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, no, no. The billboards should go up
at least a month before the air date,
and stay up past the airdate of the last rerun (I hope they'll air it more than
once.). The promotional materials that we fans should be able to buy should be made
available immediately, for the most exposure days.
I was just saying that if a potential fan sees the billboard, they don't have to run
home and call their cable company immediately (unless they see the billboard a couple of days before the airdate of course. Then, they better get their butts moving.).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I see an ad., out in the real world (i.e. not on the tube), often I make a note of
it, or just remember it (visually), and take care of it later. Sometimes, I put a
reminder (with alarm) in my PDA (I do this with trailers I see at the movies, a lot.)
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
See “measure of all things” above. You can’t assume that a large part of the potential
audience shares your personal habits. And Sci-Fi certainly can’t make that assumption.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, I doubt I'm the only one who makes a note.
If you see the billboards, and/or other promotional materials repeatedly in your
everyday life, you're more likely to have it stick in your mind, than if there were no
billboards or other promotional material for you to see.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"one shot TV movies"? Sounds like you're assuming it's going to fail.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
No, I’m trying to see this from Sci-Fi’s point of view. Until they make a decision to
go to series, a one-shot movie is all that Rangers is. If they really plan to wait
until the ratings are in before making that decision, then they will advertise and
promote as they would any other TV movie on their network.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You think that Sci-Fi views it as a separete entity, and that advertising for it won't
bring increased viewership to B5 or the rest of it's shows? That might be the case
with TNT, but not with Sci-Fi. The person who tunes in and likes the B5:LotR movie is
likely to hang around and watch the other shows.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only if they want people to find about it and watch it. If they want it to fail, and
slide into oblivion, they should continue on their present course.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
What “present course”? The one that you’re imagining, where they don’t do any
advertising until December 30th?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The one where all they do is put a few ads. on Sci-Fi, probably starting around 12/17 or 12/24.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Their “present course” is that they aren’t advertising in September a TV movie that
won’t air until January. You know what? Nobody else is advertising their January TV
movies now either.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not TV commercials, no. However, there's more to it than TV commercials, or at least
there should be. Some other stuff can be done more cheaply, further in advance.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
And why would they want a TV movie that they’ve spent several million dollars on, from a producing team that they’ve been wanting to work with since 1998, to fail?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, you were the one who said they wouldn't be putting a lot of effort into
advertising a one-shot TV movie, that they wouldn't bother doing much beyond the TV
commercials.
Your words:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
When and if Rangers becomes a series, Sci-Fi will promote it. They'll have a major
stake in the show's success and every reason in the world to want people to watch it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
To me that indicates that you think that Sci-Fi does not have a major stake in the
pilot movie, and wouldn't do a lot to promote it, that they'd only really get into
promoting it,
after it becomes a series.
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I've seen plenty of X-Files and Millenium promotion, off-network, in the past. e.g.
billboards and bus-side ads.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
By “off-network” I meant, “on other TV channels.” If I’d meant “off-television”, I
would have said so.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, that's a nit-pick. If something is off television it is "off-network."
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
X-Files is a hit show on a broadcast network that reaches millions more homes than
Sci-Fi even can since most people don’t need cable to watch it. They also have many
times the advertising budget of Sci-Fi.
Millenium is a show that Fox had reason to hope would be hit, so it also made sense to
advertise it heavily. B5 has never been a hit by any stretch of the imagination.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didn't B5 get numbers similar to Farscape on Sci-Fi? Sci-Fi did billboards and bus
sides for Farscape (although only in the big metro areas, and I guess Pittsburgh isn't
big enough).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying with the pilot movie for B5:LotR, Sci-Fi has no major stake in it's
success, and really couldn't care less if people watch it???
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
NO, that’s not what I’m saying – as you know perfectly well because in the very next
line, which you quote in your own message, I say that they will promote the TV movie
for exactly the same reason. (Talk about selective “snippage”…)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
See "Your words:" above.
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I suspect they won't advertise the pilot much, especially outside of a couple of short TV ads. on Sci-Fi, a few days before 01/02/2002, and it'll be lost among the "holiday" stuff that is on at that time of year.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Again, based on what? Warner Bros.’s perceived “lack of support” for the show, now magically transferred to SFC? It certainly can’t be based on a look at the kind of promotion they’ve done for the other original TV movies and mini-series they’ve aired. Or on the initial airings of the B5 reruns, for that matter.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, cut the "magically transferred to Sci-Fi" line will ya? You said it's Sci-Fi's
responsibility to take care of the advertising. I changed based upon what you said.
What I said means exactly what it says, that Sci-Fi won't do much beyond a few TV
commercials on their channel.
You don't think they will (or should) do
billboards, or stuff for the fans as advertising for this TV movie. If they really wanted to promote the movie, they'd see that the fans are a resource that is
on their side. Hell, we've been trying to get our friends to watch B5 for years.
There have been many threads about it. You'd think that Sci-Fi or Warner Brothers or
somebody would realize that we're on their side and we want to see the show and the B5 universe succeed. We have faith in JMS that the show will be good, and we'd
like to bring in more viewers to watch it. What is so wrong with that?
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Watch it, he'll start believing his own press, and have to invest in a whole new set
of hats.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Thank you for your concern. Actually, I almost never wear hats.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not your B5 or Crusade hats? You should be ashamed.
Until I got my B5 and Crusade hats, I didn't wear hats either (unless it was below -20F with a decent wind chill, and then I wore a hat).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Look, I’ve been out here for a long time. I’m recognizable because I use my real name
on every site rather than a different nick everywhere, so I’m easy to remember. I make
an effort to get my facts straight. When I’m proven wrong I acknowledge it. And I have
people like Alyson to keep me honest.
People tend to put stock in what I say on factual matters because I have a track
record. That is flattering, but it doesn’t make me over-estimate my importance in the
grand scheme of things.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Good to hear. However, you're getting treated like G'Kar. Soon, there will be statues.
I'm KoshN here and on Sci-Fi, macthevorlon on Yahoo Save-Crusade2X. I use my real name on the usenets.
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On other groups he's already been credited with posting info. that I actually
provided.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I’m not aware of this, but I hope you corrected whoever made the mistake. It was
probably an innocent one. Anyway, I didn’t think this was a competitive game where we
try to “scoop” each other.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it was on Sci-Fi.com and like I said I didn't bother. I didn't care too much who
got thanked for the info, as long as the info. got "out there" to the fans in need.
It was that, and the fawning over there, and then the fawning over here, that finally
got me torqued.
Whoa, glad I could finally snip something.
------------------
KoshN
----------------
Vorlon Empire
"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for the new series
"Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2, 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited September 08, 2001).]
