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Why so much B5 hostility?

I am not trying to flame you, or insult you in any way. I apologize if I came off harshly in my earlier post. I was in a bad mood, and it struck a nerve. There are a couple parts here that you may not find very pleasant, however, please read the entire thread before making an opinion. I put a lot of work into it, and I think it has some good points, for you, and everyone else.

First off, I know of many people here who are fans of both B5 and the original Trek (myself included), as well as some of the newer variants (though, usually not to the same extent. let's face it, it did go downhill). I don't have a problem with that. Good tv is good tv. B5 and TOS are good tv.

As for the flaming/insults/harsh words, whatever, you may have recieved. My honest opinion here is that you brought some of it on yourself (perhaps not intentionally).

Since you can't understand why you were treated in this way....

Your reaction to the original post about the "thinking" involved in B5 vs. ST seemed rather harsh. I understand you felt insulted, but I honestly don't think anyone meant to cause trouble. I too have worked very hard to achieve all that I've done, and I consider myself an intelligent person. I am proud of that, and if I felt that someone had directly insulted that, I would probably react in a similar way. However, I have never known the "majority of tv viewers" to mean "You, yes, you, right there... you!"

Then, you seemed to develop an attitude about it, i.e. "Not likely little one", or how about "Care to take me on you overgrown bag of hot air?"

Now maybe you were insulted, but in all of the conversation that has been exchanged here, no one else (that I have seen) has sunk to name-calling and outright rudeness (except perhaps for myself, for which, I apologize). I am very intolerant of immaturity. I had expected someone with such a supposed high intelligence to bring a little more of it into their posts. For the most part, you have done that, but there were a few occasions at the beginning there in which you did not and it got to me. So if people get a little red over your posts, that may be why.

From what I have read of your posts in which you're discussing the topic and not defending yourself, you do seem like an intelligent and well-versed person, and your comments to the thread are interesting and beneficial. Thank you for making them.

Word of advice: Relax, no one's out to get you here. It is impossible to single out a few people as exceptions to what may or may not be a rule (or what is believed to be by the poster, it really makes no difference) thus, generalizations are sometimes made. They aren't intended to insult anyone. No, it's not always the best thing to do, but it's sometimes the easiest, or only way to deal with the question at hand.

There is a good group of people here, and a lot of good conversation, and we would all like to have you contribute to that in a positive way. You may find it helpful to carry with you a box of salt, so that you may consume one grain with each post you read.

Thanks for your time.

------------------
"Expect me, when you see me."

[This message has been edited by Derian (edited May 20, 2001).]
 
Again I must rephrase myself, because now that I look at it, I have been a real jerk to you. I totally agree with you about the shows, and I am taking back some of my statements that I made about the IQ numbers. It is true that in the time that you would have been evaluated that a number such as that would be possible, and I apologize for my comment.
Both show are rather good, I don't watch TOS as much, but TNG was my fave. for a long time, and I still watch Voyager with dedication. There is no such thing as a better show of the two, because although there are B5 fans that will say Trek is bad, I know of just as many Trek fans that will flame B5, and they both bring out reasonable arguments. They're both very different in their style, with Trek perhaps having a minor overall edge with the visual effects, but as I said different shows.

------------------
If you go to New Jersey, you will die!
 
Hmm I always thought that this discussion about intelligent Scifi or not intelligent scifi, is rather tedious and a rather unfruitfull topic to begin on.
All you really need is a good imagination, good observant skills, an abstract way of looking at the world, bingo that is what most people can do if they wanted to.
Mans way of measuring our so called intelligence is not a very accurate tool.
Because with patience and hard work you will become good at something, maybe even several skills, it takes training to become good at something, and we are different when we train to learn.
Some stuff is tedious and difficult to grasp, but if you really bend your mind to will it to learn you will(sometimes
wink.gif
hehe)
A wolf is deeply intelligent, it has a frightening high learning curve, but does it read or make poetry??
No it uses it to kill to survive.
So our ¨intelligent¨ tests are something we have invented ourselves, because we now can use our brains to more than just surviving, it freed us up to pursue other things like art and writing.... etc.
We are lucky to have this brain of ours and the will to be more than just another animal.
Our intelligence is different, maybe not better because it also carries deep foolishness and stupid pride along all the beautyfull things we create.
Now that speaks lenghts about our complexity, it is our salvation and our doom.
We are a paradox, that is why I like Scifi and fantasy, I don't give a rats ass about who or what is the leading trendsetter or the most correct one, I care about what I prefer to watch and read.
All else is just plain nitpicking and og very little use.
Trek was cancelled back then in the 60's.
It is a cheaply made show with fun ideas, and perhaps even radical ideas in some countries, please do remember that there are other countries with other histories than the US, just to point out our very different cultural backgrounds.
B5 is a more modern show, build on inspiration from past masters, just like such things always have been.
Nothing is brandnew or original, it has been done before in some way
smile.gif

Well until a certain point of course...hehe.
Take it for what it is, don't waste your energy on arguing over senseless stuff, do learn from the stories that are told instead.
Way better
wink.gif

Excuse my very long post, and sorry for my poor English skills and for my bold postulate, but I hope to have made some sort of sense.


------------------
I find your lack of faith
disturbing.
 
Your reply is very thoughtful, elegant and sensible. And your use of English seems perfect to me, by the way.
smile.gif


------------------
 
NIce conclusions Niels (and your English was fine
smile.gif
)...
Ok, my view on the intelligence thing is to can it (please)... after all the first thing I was taught when we started to look at intelligence in psychology is that there is not really any one definition - it's hard to pin down and depends on what you're looking for...
Let's just appreciate that there is a wide variety of viewing (reading, etc.) options out there, and not everyone is going to agree about them, whether it's Sci Fi versus Mainstream or B5 versus Trek (or one series of Trek vs another)... the disagreements can be fun - I love reading well thought out, logical (and humourous) arguments...
and now I've been distracted and can't remember what the gist of this post was going to be
crazy.gif

So I'll just conclude by saying that it takes all types... every genre and sub genre is going to attract them, including those who will bad mouth something without knowing too much about it. I like to think that if you ignore them they'll go away - but I never get a chance to see that happening as there's also people willing to respond to them. Still - I enjoy the debates, and enjoy the sci fi - and feel lucky that I am able to both enjoy it, and understand it... and appreciate at what I like to think is at a reasonably high level (compared to some people I've met anyway - IRL - no one here
smile.gif
)... I'm sure that it can only make my life the richer.

------------------
Have you been taking a philosophy course for the martial-artistically challenged?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Derian:
I am not trying to flame you, or insult you in any way. I apologize if I came off harshly in my earlier post. I was in a bad mood, and it struck a nerve. There are a couple parts here that you may not find very pleasant, however, please read the entire thread before making an opinion. I put a lot of work into it, and I think it has some good points, for you, and everyone else.

First off, I know of many people here who are fans of both B5 and the original Trek (myself included), as well as some of the newer variants (though, usually not to the same extent. let's face it, it did go downhill). I don't have a problem with that. Good tv is good tv. B5 and TOS are good tv.

As for the flaming/insults/harsh words, whatever, you may have recieved. My honest opinion here is that you brought some of it on yourself (perhaps not intentionally).

Since you can't understand why you were treated in this way....

Your reaction to the original post about the "thinking" involved in B5 vs. ST seemed rather harsh. I understand you felt insulted, but I honestly don't think anyone meant to cause trouble. I too have worked very hard to achieve all that I've done, and I consider myself an intelligent person. I am proud of that, and if I felt that someone had directly insulted that, I would probably react in a similar way. However, I have never known the "majority of tv viewers" to mean "You, yes, you, right there... you!"

Then, you seemed to develop an attitude about it, i.e. "Not likely little one", or how about "Care to take me on you overgrown bag of hot air?"

Now maybe you were insulted, but in all of the conversation that has been exchanged here, no one else (that I have seen) has sunk to name-calling and outright rudeness (except perhaps for myself, for which, I apologize). I am very intolerant of immaturity. I had expected someone with such a supposed high intelligence to bring a little more of it into their posts. For the most part, you have done that, but there were a few occasions at the beginning there in which you did not and it got to me. So if people get a little red over your posts, that may be why.

From what I have read of your posts in which you're discussing the topic and not defending yourself, you do seem like an intelligent and well-versed person, and your comments to the thread are interesting and beneficial. Thank you for making them.

Word of advice: Relax, no one's out to get you here. It is impossible to single out a few people as exceptions to what may or may not be a rule (or what is believed to be by the poster, it really makes no difference) thus, generalizations are sometimes made. They aren't intended to insult anyone. No, it's not always the best thing to do, but it's sometimes the easiest, or only way to deal with the question at hand.

There is a good group of people here, and a lot of good conversation, and we would all like to have you contribute to that in a positive way. You may find it helpful to carry with you a box of salt, so that you may consume one grain with each post you read.

Thanks for your time.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no idea who you are and have never referred directly to you in any post. I have no argument with you and although I have indeed read your post, I am not quieted by it.

I fail to see where I brought anything on myself, I was making a statement that even intelligent people can enjoy the original trek. it was a great show for its time. I printed out Babylon Intelligence's post that gave me the pause to begin with and I am not the only one who was insulted by it. Whether or not I reacted in an overdone fashion, that could indeed be true. But instead of the original postee telling me to backoff that I misunderstood or took something out of context (which is certainly dooable in the world of the internet as you cannot include voice inflection into typed words), others jumped on me. I have taken a lot of heat on other other boards being a b5 fan and even worse on other b5 boards for being an original trek fan. I have been told i am old, outdated, and stupid for being a trekkie. It is hard not to take it personally.

I have some medical reasons where I sometimes take things too personally and I will admit that. And I am usually a very friendly person who takes a lot of junk from others. I usually don't mind, and take it with the "grain of salt" that you suggest. But that post just irked me beyond belief. I have never, and I repeat never resorted to name calling. Bag of air is not exactly an insult, remember the trek episode where we being humans were ugly bags of mostly water? LOL. That was a surprisingly good episode to me. There were quite a few that will remain in my mind forever as they touched a part of my brain and soul in an almost "epiphany" sort of way. And I am sorry, but Gene Roddenberry was a good friend and I loved him immensely. He had problems but he was a good man, so I protect him even to the point of distraction. That is human i suppose.

And it is oddly interesting and problematic as well that we sci fi fans don't just band together for good programming and love each other in the process. All sci fi shows need our help and support to keep the genre growing. In many respects its the only good stuff on TV.

Again, I have no arguments with you and if you were offended by any of my posts, please accept my apology.

Now I am on to make world peace with Solaris as he and I were having a big argument. I scanned a post of his after this one by you and I now believe that is a pretty cool young man. Wouldn't mind meeting him some day hopefully at a sci fi convention or something where we can share world views.

What is TOS? My brain and initials are not in working order at this time. To me TOS is term of service and I am just not clicking as to the show it refers to.



------------------
Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
ST: TOS = Star Trek "The Original Series." Used to distinguish it from its many progeny. If you just use Star Trek nowadays people think you are referring to the entire franchise, or get confused as to which show you mean. This is especially true when dealing with younger fans for whom Star Trek means TNG or DS9, and who may never really have sat down and watched any of the "quaint" original episodes with their cardboard sets and "hokey" special FX.
smile.gif


Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by solaris5:
Again I must rephrase myself, because now that I look at it, I have been a real jerk to you. I totally agree with you about the shows, and I am taking back some of my statements that I made about the IQ numbers. It is true that in the time that you would have been evaluated that a number such as that would be possible, and I apologize for my comment.
Both show are rather good, I don't watch TOS as much, but TNG was my fave. for a long time, and I still watch Voyager with dedication. There is no such thing as a better show of the two, because although there are B5 fans that will say Trek is bad, I know of just as many Trek fans that will flame B5, and they both bring out reasonable arguments. They're both very different in their style, with Trek perhaps having a minor overall edge with the visual effects, but as I said different shows.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Solaris5, thank you, you just earned, and I mean this sincerely, my great respect. I also hope you will accept my apology as well, we all have our bugaboos and we all get "insulted" here and there. Most of it isn't intentional or done to truly hurt someone, it just happens.

You say you are a TNG fan. What were your individual favorite episodes. I had 8 that I remember with great clarity that made a long time impression on me personally. I am just curious because the few that I loved won awards and were totally awesome in nature. I tried so hard to like voyager, but i think that because I wanted it to go a different direction, it was my own fault I wasn't satisfied with the show. It also didn't help that the station here in DC kept moving its time and night so that I couldn't find it easily without disrupting movies or my only downtime. It was going well when they bought in Seven. But I have a feeling the outfit made it more drivel to many fans than a thought provoking show as it should have been.

I don't complain to men about ogling the sci fi "babes". I ogle the guys just as much. So it would be like the pot calling the kettle black or whatever other cliche that is available at the time.

Bottom line, I like to be entertained period. And many of these shows entertain. I will say though that B5 actually gets my household talking about the universe whereas Star Trek doesn't, but hey, apples and oranges. Each has its value.

I remember hurrying to get home to watch Lost in Space and (I am loathe to admit it), Dark Shadows. Hey I loved Jonathon Frid (go figure).

Thank you so much, you have no idea how much this post means to me. You said you were 15 right? Methinks we have a good future to look forward to after all.

I live in DC by the way, and it is hard sometimes to relate.



------------------
Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
Oh, don't worry about offending me. You didn't. You may have at first, but like I said, I was in a bad mood at the time when I read some of the stuff, hence the harsh tone of my first reply. I was just saying that some of what could have been percieved by others harshness, which came across in your posts, not necessarily the content of them, may have been what caused some of the ill-feelings. It's really a moot point now, since that aspect seems to be settled. A few people misunderstood a few other people, and everyone apologized for jumping to conclusions. As for the dispute over trek fans, vs. b5 fans, really, what's the point? I, like you, don't see a reason for it. I don't see a reason for being intolerant about what someone else watches on TV, either. I mean, really... who has enough time in their life to care about what television shoe someone on the internet who's a world away frim them is watching?

------------------
"Expect me, when you see me."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
ST: TOS = Star Trek "The Original Series." Used to distinguish it from its many progeny. If you just use Star Trek nowadays people think you are referring to the entire franchise, or get confused as to which show you mean. This is especially true when dealing with younger fans for whom Star Trek means TNG or DS9, and who may never really have sat down and watched any of the "quaint" original episodes with their cardboard sets and "hokey" special FX.
smile.gif


Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhhhh, thanks, now I understand TOS. And I am trying desperately hard not to giggle here, or have it turn into a downright belly laugh because I will always love TOS. But yes, you could call those sets and their so called special effects "quaint". But remember the times they did a change.

For the better too, IMHO.

Hey, did you get your head out from under that bucket? I was worried bout ya.



------------------
Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
I was the person GideonsMine called "Little One" earlier in the thread. Well, I'm not exactly "little"--I'm in my late 30's! Also, I don't think that all Trekkers are such bad people. I don't like the ones who think Trek is the be-all & end-all. These are the Trekkers who gave me an awful time when I was a Max Headroom (ABC-version) fan in the late-'80's. They also picketed a Los Angeles theater that was showing Star Wars:Episode 1 because they didn't like the competition. The more reasonable Trekkers are fine, though.

Tammy

------------------
 
Isn't it interesting that the US and several other countries now have SciFi networks and manage to fill 24 hours a day with shows relating to science fiction. Granted not all the shows are great -- we recently had Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea -- and some of the special effects in the past were kind of amateur. I am a TOS fan as well as B5, but I have to admit there was a lot about TNG that I didn't like.

First there was Wesley Crusher, Boy Wonder, and the awful uniforms on the women in the first year. Then I never got used to having an English actor playing a Frenchman. Why? I started watching again about the middle of the third year and IMO it had improved somewhat.

I don't know why the Trek and B5 are constantly being compared. They are quite different and with an open mind you can enjoy them both.

------------------
 
Ok, I skimmed this topic due to members emailing me about it being on the hostile side. From what I can gather, no one is getting anywhere with this. To hopefully avoid further hostility on this thread, I am closing it.

invalensname

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"There is always hope. Only because its the one thing no one's figured out how to kill, yet."
--Galen, 'Crusade'
 

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