who are the real villains here ???

channe · Nov 21, 2001

In typical B5 fashion, the story makes us think that there are clear-cut villians until we find out that that's really not true.

Good vs. evil? Black vs. white?

Nah, this is a struggle between two shades of grey.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 22, 2001

VORLON PROPAGANDA

Who are the bad guys here ?? the vorlons (in the series) (of course it not as it is real) had lied to us manipulated the other races and actually destroyed entire worlds a lot more than the shadows ever did (that we know of) i am taking a liking to the shadows maybe that is the way forward morden had a point spolier below :

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> When you look at a Vorlon, you see what they want you to see. They've manipulated us so we would respond favourably to them. They've even interfered at a genetic level by taking humans and then .. adjusting them. Why do you think certifiable telepaths came out of nowhere a hundred years ago?" </td></tr></table>

you`re thoughts on this please !!!!

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"Your patience is also a weapon, when used properly. We will arrive when we arrive and we will have the weapons we have. You can not win this war through force, you must .. understand your way out of this. Sheridan knows. What remains to be seen is whether he knows that he knows."
-- Lorien to Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Into the Fire"

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Alai · Nov 22, 2001

I had often wondered the same thing. And if you think of it,

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>when we find out that the Vorlons were in on the stealing of B4, it makes you think that maybe the Vorlons were the ones who destroyed B1,2, and 3. </td></tr></table>

Meaning that the Shadows might have protected it, knowing what it would mean to them.

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AngelSummers · Nov 22, 2001

I really hate it when good and evil is complicated and mixed into a muddy pool which is undrinkable by anybody.

If you don't mind however, I can try to make a simple interpretion which I know will be vehemently debated.

They're both evil. From the moment they took up they're petty differences in favour of their responsibility to the younger races.

Let us use the analogy of parents and children. All parents in raising their children have conflicts on bringing them up. Most of the time, it doesn't get serious because in the end, the child's well-being came first and the parents reconcile not only because of their love for the child but their love for each other.

(I'm assuming parents NORMALLY do that. My parents certainly did.)

For the Shadows(father) and Vorlons(mother), they were never actually good parents since they both taught they're own doctrines to their own set of children but never bothered to have a "meeting of the minds" to discuss the merits of both doctrines. But they were still Good in the sense that the children came first.

Until the Shadow Wars began. Maybe better called the War of Ideologies (WOI). The father and mother began quarelling but instead of abusing each other, they let the children do it for them. Little brothers and sisters quarreled and killed each other while parents watched without a care of the deaths they actually caused. And when one child actually kick the Father in the knee (Sheridan at Zha'Dum), Mother started killing the Father's kids so that Father's way would die and Mother would have only her kids to live with.

Point is the line was crossed when they became selfish of their own desire. This is probably the Line of Evil. I base this on the intentions of the Shadows. Although they DID have the intentions of teaching the younger races, it was secondary. The primary was proving the other wrong. In the face of that primary objective, the secondary which should have been first concern was forgotten.

This is why Sheridan booted out the Vorlons and the Shadows. And Grandfather (Lorien) advised them to leave since ther children were clearly mature.

A very funny analogy but then, I'm only 19. I still tend to simplify the world with good and evil despite considerable blurring of the line.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

hypatia · Nov 22, 2001

I'd say you summed it up very nicely!

Ever see parents that are divorcing/ recently divorced?

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reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

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Galahad · Nov 22, 2001

If you want to know the real face of the enemy of B5, listen to music not the song. What I mean is... don't look at the characters, look at what is going on in and between them. The real enemy is summarised at the end of "And the Rock Cried Out No Hiding Place!" by the Baptist Minister. Fear and Hate. Hating that, which is different.

With reference to the above, it fits in nicely with the Vorlons and the Shadows. I would say that initially, their primary intent was to raise the younger races, but their internal relations soured due to their differences. They hated the opposite attitude so much, they became enemies. I am given to wondering where the other First Ones fit into the big picture. My guess is that as a collective, the First Ones all had a hand in raising the younger races. However, in the same way factions and frictions end groups today in society, the same thing happened with the First Ones. Basically, when you get one or two dominant personalities clashing over the direction a group goes, it either splits the group down the middle or scatters the group to the four winds. I believe the other FO's got fed up with the Shadows and Vorlons constant bickering, and decided to leave them to it. They probably felt they'd done their bit and couldn't be bothered with all the hassle. If nothing else it would explain there evasive attitudes to the "indoctrinated" younger races, and hostility to the vorlons (Walkers of Sigma 957).

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**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 22, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>They're both evil. From the moment they took up they're petty differences in favour of their responsibility to the younger races.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Neither are evil, neither are good... there are no evil or good. It is a PERCEPTION, like the world being flat. It depends on your viewpoint which totally changes a perspective.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Let us use the analogy of parents and children. All parents in raising their children have conflicts on bringing them up. Most of the time, it doesn't get serious because in the end, the child's well-being came first and the parents reconcile not only because of their love for the child but their love for each other.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually if people would pay more attention to the show or get it plain as day from various books they'd learn this is an ACT. As realised by Sheriden, they could have killed each other at any time and then with the other guy gone with time people will forget and succumb to the ideas left. The Shadows and Vorlons actually got along in a sense, they had rules, they conversed but were like best friends who are totally opposite. You go to cinema together etc. but you often argue about subjects and sometimes you fight.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>For the Shadows(father) and Vorlons(mother), they were never actually good parents since they both taught they're own doctrines to their own set of children but never bothered to have a "meeting of the minds" to discuss the merits of both doctrines. But they were still Good in the sense that the children came first.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, they did... what did you think they were doing for the millions of years beforehand? This was all started by the Triad (one of the first ones, second only to Loriens race). They manifest automatons based on order, neuatrality and chaos that fight each other, it was a method of teaching the younger races. Triad consider vorlons and shadows as younger races btw. It teaches them how to get along and they pass this on to the next generation. Breaking the rules however is frowned upon.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Until the Shadow Wars began. Maybe better called the War of Ideologies (WOI). The father and mother began quarelling but instead of abusing each other, they let the children do it for them. Little brothers and sisters quarreled and killed each other while parents watched without a care of the deaths they actually caused. And when one child actually kick the Father in the knee (Sheridan at Zha'Dum), Mother started killing the Father's kids so that Father's way would die and Mother would have only her kids to live with.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Back to perception again, to the younger races it was a war, but to the first ones it was at best a game.

That's the whole point though, it's about getting the younger races to learn to look after themselves like teaching a child responsability by using consequences. I mean not long after the war the ISA was formed and the galaxy was immediately a much better place.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Point is the line was crossed when they became selfish of their own desire. This is probably the Line of Evil. I base this on the intentions of the Shadows. Although they DID have the intentions of teaching the younger races, it was secondary. The primary was proving the other wrong. In the face of that primary objective, the secondary which should have been first concern was forgotten.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. If you remember back to the beginnings of the war it is the younger races who enlisted the help of the Vorlons. Minbari contact Vorlons, Vorlons come, Sheriden asks Vorlons to fight shadows, Vorlons fight, Vorlon dies, Sheriden blows up a shadow city thus breaking the rules (sheriden being on the Vorlon side at this time at least), so the Vorlons take responsability and defend sheridens action. The Vorlons point this out to Sheriden at ITF, Sheriden basically ignoring it. Younger races started it, Vorlons intended to finish it for them forever. Sure they kill billions to this end, but there would be infinite death as long as shadows lived to wage war. Infinity>billions. You choose.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is why Sheridan booted out the Vorlons and the Shadows. And Grandfather (Lorien) advised them to leave since ther children were clearly mature.

A very funny analogy but then, I'm only 19. I still tend to simplify the world with good and evil despite considerable blurring of the line.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheriden caused the open war between the two. The whole thing was basically an act to get them all together like the first ones are all together. They may seem like they wage war against each other but really they are a tight group. The reason they even bother to manipulate the younger races? Well basically what happened was a young first one called the Kirishiac waged war on the younger races and won easily (obviously) then waged war on the first ones. They were beaten easily but they realised that they had not paid enough attention to the other races to know who is of their power so took a more active role.

The analogy was used by Sheriden by the way, probably why you thought of using it.

Sheriden however is one of the younger beings and knows nothing of first one history and agenda. He has a piece of the puzzle but that's it.

How do I know this is probably going through those who read this, well there is an agents of gaming supplement called "wars of the ancients" made to explain all about the first ones. The show hints at this a lot but I guess it's hard to see with a casual view. For example, how Sheriden found a pattern in shadow attacks... thus showing the order of the Shadows. The Shadows are actually ordered but feel chaos promotes a new and better order.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

bakana · Nov 22, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The reason they even bother to manipulate the younger races? Well basically what happened was a young first one called the Kirishiac waged war on the younger races and won easily (obviously) then waged war on the first ones. They were beaten easily but they realised that they had not paid enough attention to the other races to know who is of their power so took a more active role. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Source??

You been reading FanFic again??

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
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**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 22, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
Source??

You been reading FanFic again??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agents of gaming.

Again? No, this is canon from agents of gaming, JMS puts a header note in an AOG supplement stating that it was canonical and if he is unavailable he'll direct people to AOG for the source of information for writing for the show. He holds it in a very high regard in fact.

Just in case you wondered -
http://hyperspace.isnnews.net/first/first-2_lg1.jpg

That is a ship of the Kirishiac lords.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

Zoriah · Nov 22, 2001

What's this TRIAD stuff anyway?

And I don't see it at all as the younger races starting it. It was definitely the manipulations of the first ones and their changing of the rules of engagement that brought everything to a head.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 22, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Zoriah:
What's this TRIAD stuff anyway?

And I don't see it at all as the younger races starting it. It was definitely the manipulations of the first ones and their changing of the rules of engagement that brought everything to a head.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://hyperspace.isnnews.net/first/first-3_lg1.jpg

These guys. They're like ironheart have control of the subatomic and can create ships by collecting energy from suns, hyperspace... wherever and turn it into matter and form it into a ship. They're below Lorien but pretty damn close to being god's. Kinda like Q.

They had to change (rules) because the younger races changed them for them. Such as directly attacking the shadows, Kosh was opposed as it's against the rules. But he took pity on Sheriden in the end and his kind and decided they were worth dying for. Then Sheriden blows up a major shadow city, definitely breaking the rules... so the Vorlons have to back up Sheriden's actions before the Shadows return the favour. The younger races forced the two into fighting openly for their benefit. Which is basically the point, to make them realise they don't need em.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

[This message has been edited by Dark Lord (edited November 22, 2001).]

Jomar · Nov 22, 2001

The start of the differences between the Vorlons and Shadows is lost in history. It reminds me of the Hatfields and McCoys. They are born hating each other and neither knows or can remember how it started. It's like both sides in a war having a nuclear arsenal but both are afraid to fire the first one because they know the other will retaliate in kind.

So what do they do, they get others to do their fighting for them. The question was are they evil, and yes, I think they are. They may not have started that way but over the eons of time they have lost all the good qualities like compassion, and generosity and all they have left is hate.

It seems that Kosh was not really a good representative of his race, and to begin with we think all Vorlons are like him. On the other hand, we never get to know a Shadow in the same way. The only one we know is Morden and he isn't really one of them, just an agent.

Which is worst, take your choice.

To me they are about the same.

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AngelSummers · Nov 23, 2001

Like I said people, it's all a matter of perspective. Howeverm I believe Sheridan had enough if not all the knowledge he needed, not just a piece of the puzzle. Based on this he kicked out the Shadwos and Vorlons.

fortunately for you I have Babylon 5 Wars and have read it so I know much of what you're talking about. What you said is again another perspective, not straight from JMS pen. Like I said, I'm trying to simplify the thing so that complexities will not blind people to the truth: That the Vorlons and Shadows had lost their way.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 23, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by AngelSummers:
Like I said people, it's all a matter of perspective. Howeverm I believe Sheridan had enough if not all the knowledge he needed, not just a piece of the puzzle. Based on this he kicked out the Shadwos and Vorlons.

fortunately for you I have Babylon 5 Wars and have read it so I know much of what you're talking about. What you said is again another perspective, not straight from JMS pen. Like I said, I'm trying to simplify the thing so that complexities will not blind people to the truth: That the Vorlons and Shadows had lost their way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which means you know the Triad used order, chaos and neutrality to teach the vorlons shadows etc. to get along. It worked (they left each other alone), the first ones begun working together after the kirishiac war. Then Vorlons represent order, Shadows chaos, and younger races neutrality... coincidence yes?

The same JMS pen that wrote AOG is a canon source? In which the material shows the above.

If they had lost their way then they wouldn't be playing with the toy ships but using big guns. They generally stuck to the rules (only really changed by the younger races) and played the galactic game in which to teach the younger races what they had learnt. The younger races are merely puppets of their own play.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

Nukemall · Nov 23, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> chaos promotes a new and better order <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oxymoron?

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'I MA DARKE AND MYSZTERIOUS LIEK JaY C DENTAN!!!1' - Corn Hat

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 23, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Nukemall:
Oxymoron?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. Shadows don't really cause chaos, they cause the perception that chaos runs the galaxy, so the races are forced into recreating themselves to be better (in order to overcome that perception). Like with Mordens example, kick over an anthill and it is built bigger and stronger. They make you think so much about their left hand with the big, bold, neon chaos sign flashing that people don't realise they're creating a new order with the right hand.

They're not really causing chaos since they have everything pre-planned (as exampled by Sheriden)... which requires order, just an illusion.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

B5Lady · Nov 23, 2001

You are talking about perspectives. The way I see it is that no one is just good or bad!The Vorlons have evil traits as well as the Shadows have goods.

(I couldn`t tell how much I have hated Ulkesh - that arrogant Vorlon from "To Dream in the City of Sorrows". He is without doubt personalised evil!
It`s like Londo said in "In the Beginning": Arrogance travels between the stars like solarwinds!)

How will you recognize the good without knowing the evil? Or how will you recognize order without knowing chaos?

The Shadows represent that chaos. But you need chaos to advance or all ends up in stagnation!
_______________________

But nevertheless the Vorlons are more likeable!!!

Jade Jaguar · Nov 23, 2001

Dark Lord, it was really Kosh and the Vorlons who, at Sheridan's behest, changed the rules of engagement by attacking in support of the Alliance, not Sheridan's attack on Z'Ha'Dum, which came later. And of course, Kosh was killed for that infraction.

The world is NOT flat. Good and evil are not just a point of view. If armed people broke into your house, tortured and killed your family, and left with the contents, are you saying that wouldn't be evil just because it worked for them? I don't think so. Certainly there are grey areas, but if beings in possession of their faculties, acting of their own volition, do extremely harmful things for purely selfish reasons to innocent people, that is evil. I think Angel Summers' analysis is rather apt, especially in view of the behavior of the Shadows and the Vorlons when Sheridan exposes them, as they immediately act like frightened children themselves. I am not a Buddhist like Angel, and I don't believe that desire is intrinsically wrong, or dangerous, but I recognize that desire is often, if not always, the motivation behind evil acts, and I think Angel does pinpoint the moment the Shadows became unequivocally evil. Before that, although I think their means were very bad, and unjustifiable,infact evil, it could be argued that their motivations, to strengthen the younger races, were good. Good and bad, though sometimes murky, are easier to tell than evil. At exactly what point does someone/thing cross the line from bad to evil? That can be tricky. For me, the Shadows crossed it just by deliberately fomenting wars. And the Vorlons, who seemed to be the good guys, definitely did evil by destroying whole planets to eliminate the Shadows' influence, regardless of any innocent people who might be hurt.

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

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Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

bakana · Nov 23, 2001

If we're going to discuss Perspective here, it's a good idea to explore the perspective of the Vorlons and Shadows.

From the POV of a First One race, Humans, Narns, Centauri, etc. are "Ants".

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "There are things in the Universe billions of years older than either of our races.
They are vast, timeless, and if they are aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us.
We know. We've tried and we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot
or be stepped on."

G'Kar to Sakai in Babylon 5:"Mind War" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as the Vorlons & Shadows are concerned, the individual lives of the younger races matter little more than the lives of Lab Rats.
Each Race is an experiment.
If the experiment isn't "working", for whatever reason, they see no problem with terminating it and starting over.

It's when they start terminating Each Others' experiments instead of their Own that the Fresh Spoo hits the fan.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

Jade Jaguar · Nov 23, 2001

Here on Earth, many of us would think it evil to deliberately torment lesser animals, some would include ants in that. The Jains sweep the sidewalk so as not to step on any insects. Most serial killers start out by torturing animals, and most people who torture animals are also not too nice to humans on a regular basis. The quote you cite was not specifically aimed at the Vorlons and Shadows. I think it fair to say that they find us at least more like lab monkeys. I think all this mitigates your point somewhat, but I agree that you still have a point.

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

who are the real villains here ???

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