Warrior Monks in Sci-Fi

[diogenesfa]

I like the concept. It is one that appears from time to time in Sci-Fi. I'm not sure if it's been done well yet though.
Legends of the Rangers *may* end up being a good analysis of the concept.

We've seen the Jedi Knights. I guess the fedayakin? in Dune can be regarded as such (of course there's the bene gesserit).

George Lucas was eventually conceded that the Jedi Knights were based on the historical warrior monks that were created to protect the Holy Land during the Crusades. These were the Knights of St John (Hospitaller), the Knights Templar, the Teutonic Knights - and a bunch of other smaller groups.
The Chinese, of course, had the Shaolin warrior monks.

These historic knights were formed to protect the roads from brigands and staff the border castles of the crusader states. They were completely independent of the local government, answerable only to the pope. They had their own law, structure, resources, estates, ships etc. They were also regarded as "elite" as they were the only standing army of their time. They were regarded as "mystical" because they spent as much time in the monastery as they did in the battlefield.

See the parallels?

No criticism is implied. History is always inspiration for fiction (just as the politics before, during and after WWII were used for Babylon 5 - at JMS's own admission)

I guess the "flavor" of the Rangers will come down to whether JMS was more inspired by the Grail knights of arthurian legends than the Militant Orders of history.

B5 was certainly more Arthurian. But, perhaps now that more detail is needed to "flesh out" the Rangers, the historic stuff will appear.

Either way, there is a lot of history in both - and a lot of very, very murky politics.
A lot of potential for "transformation" into the B5 universe

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[bakana]

Well, since JMS said that his inspiration was "The Lone Ranger"...

Let's hope the B5 Rangers turn out NOT to have much in common with the Knights Templar, Hospitalars, etc. of the Crusades.
They turned into a murderous bunch of sanctimonious thieves for the most part.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
Let's hope the B5 Rangers turn out NOT to have much in common with the Knights Templar, Hospitalars, etc. of the Crusades.
They turned into a murderous bunch of sanctimonious thieves for the most part.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the Templars were dissolved and their Grandmaster burnt of a pyre for alleged heresy when the King of France needed a bit more cash and thought it couldn't be that the treasury of the Temple was bigger than his own anyway.... Too bad that a lot of it went to the Hospitaliers, and that he didn't live long enough to truly enjoy his new riches.

(For those who speak French, probably one of the best websites on the Knights Templar: www.templiers.org )

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

[This message has been edited by Irmo (edited February 10, 2002).]

 

[diogenesfa]

Most warrior monk organisations do end up being homocidal maniacs.
That is a common outcome of combining religion with politics: fanaticism.

I saw more than a hint of this fanaticism in TLaDiS.

I hope it ends up being a major plot point.
Would it not be great to see the Rangers burnt at the stake for "heresy"

And monks have another trait which tends to become a bit of a problem when it comes to politics: they're very insular. Cut off from the "real" world. This could affect the quality of their judgement...

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[This message has been edited by diogenesfa (edited February 10, 2002).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I guess that's why Valen was rather concerned about what might become of the Rangers, and designed measures to keep them from sliding off into extremes.

Naturally none of this lasted for a thousand years, but another process balanced it out. The Rangers were gradually dismantled by the Grey Council during that time -- the Council would simply not fund them.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[Psi-gryphon]

We know the Rangers are still around ... a long time from now -- don't remember how long, but they were there in the second to last (?) bit in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" -- so obviously they don't fall into homocidal tendencies or get completely dismantled in that time. I think maybe they have some things going for them that the other groups mentioned didn't. First, they aren't devoted to spreading a particular ideology other than peace, so they aren't likely to go killing people to achieve their goal or what have you. Also, they don't strike me as very insular or disconnected from the outside world/universe. I mean, they're always out there in the universe. Hard to be disconnected when you're out there "in the dark places no others will enter."

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"There is always hope. Only because it's the only thing no one has figured out how to kill yet."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

That was exactly what I meant.

After the last Shadow war and accepting new duties, it would be pretty hard for the Rangers to become "fixed in their ways".

For the simple reason that they travel the whole galaxy, patrol trade routes, interact with countless civilisations and consist of members from numerous races.

But during the time after Valen and before Babylon 5, Rangers seem to have slowly degraded, becoming Minbari-only and mainly warrior-caste, while their funding from the Grey Council decreased dramatically (as mentioned by Lenonn in "In the Beginning").

After being essentially re-established by Sinclair and thoroughly shaken up by Delenn, the Rangers became a galactic organisation independent of the Grey Council... and seemed to find the key to their long existance, as hinted in "Deconstruction".

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[frobisher]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psi-gryphon:
We know the Rangers are still around ... a long time from now -- don't remember how long, but they were there in the second to last (?) bit in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you look at the ship that departs for New Earth right at the end, it's got the Itzl'zha (sp?) marked on the side - the legacy of the Rangers is still there in a million years time...



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Paddy Sinclair

"I think it's an excellent plan. But then, I've been shot through the head on five or six occasions"- Troop Leader Keitel, The Corps

 

[channe]

I think it's pretty safe to say that the Rangers are one warrior-monk organization that, in the end, is not going to fall into the trap you mentioned above.

This is probably because although the Rangers are spiritually-oriented, they are not RELIGIOUSLY oriented. Although they take on Minbari spiritual practices it's safe to say that Na'feel isn't exactly a believer in Valen.

If you're fighting for a GOD, it gets a bit dicey...

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "Last one to kill a bad guy buys the beer." -lost in space

 

[alex zahara]

Hey everyone, speaking as one who played a Warrior Monk, I believe that the central core of the Rangers is pure and fired to help rather than rule. I thnk ther will always be extreme elements in the works but they can usually be spotted and dealt with. Take care...Alex/Dulann

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Dulann

 

[diogenesfa]

Hiya

Well, for the sake of debate

, of *course* warrior-monks would think their purpose is true and pure.

I'm sure the Templars did.
So would the Rangers. As do the still-existant Knights of St John, and any other number of quazi religious militant organisations.

That's the nature of fanaticism: deep belief that their "cause" is correct.
When others disagree, that is cause enough to be labeled "heathen", "traitor" and "ignorant" etc.

Don't get me wrong: I don't want the Rangers to be evil.

I just think the whole concept of Rangers offers a fresh body of subject matter for JMS (and other writers) to explore.
It's another kind of politics. It's another motivator that provides ample opportunity for conflict, misunderstanding etc.

And it is one very very relevant to the times we live in post September 11.

We've seen how fanatic the Rangers are in TLaDiS. (The repetition "we live for the one, we die for the one" mantra sounds awfully like the way the Templar knights repeated "Non nobis Domine, non nobis sed Nomini Tuo da Gloriam")

With the establishment of such fanaticism as an underlying trait of the Rangers, the other "deadly sin" of pride would fit in nicely.

Anyway, it's all gristle for the mill

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[This message has been edited by diogenesfa (edited February 12, 2002).]

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> it's all gristle for the mill <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, we're making cheap hamburger here??

Or were you thinking of Grist?

Grist, BTW for those who don't know, is an old word for Corn Meal.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[Teekas Dragon]

Something else that you see in "Deconstruction...." is that the encounter suit has the ranger pin on it if i'm not mistaken, which maybe i am since i haven't seen that ep in over a year.

Not all warrior monk groups are fanatics/outwardly violent to others. It's been awhile since i read this but there was a group of warrior monks in (DAMN IT!!! i can't remember the country now) that were actually peaceful towards all they encountered unless forced to use violence. This stopped when the country got a new ruler who outlawed their beliefs and put into law that everyone following those beliefs were to be executed. That's when this group fled into the mountains to remain alive and keep their beliefs going. Those that didn't survive killed many in trying to do this. I can't remember all the details but i think that they were eventually all thought to be wiped out. If anyone knows what i'm talking about and can fill in the blanks i'd be very thankful.

Sinc.
Jerome Easter

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I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for the One. We die for the one.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I would suspect that the Rangers lasted long and stayed in balance... because their role was in continuous change. And through that change, they managed to keep two important features: respect for life and memory of their past.

Rangers were created to wait for the return of Shadows... they were reformed to fight the Shadows. After that, their purpose shifted to peacekeeping. After the Great Burn, they took the role of teacers and rebuilders, helping Earth rejoin the galaxy.

Valen deliberately erased records of himself, but the last Shadow war stayed sharp in memory. Rangers seem to have changed often, but preserved the important parts of their principles. Only in change can things last. And only by remembering where you came from... can you decide where to go.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[Quagmire]

What probably kept the Rangers from the pitfalls of other groups is that believing in the religion was not required, just respecting those who do. Especially with the influx of other races the power of the religious aspects is unlikely to get out of hand.

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"

 

[channe]

Yup. For example, Martel. I doubt he believes in the whole Valen thing - but he sure as heck was sitting in front of some sort of meditation garden when Dulann came in to notify him about the command crew. Meditating.

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "Last one to kill a bad guy buys the beer." -lost in space

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Meditating. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that IS a large part of the training.
And, since it IS useful in many situations, likely to Remain part of the training.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[Nukemall]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Teekas Dragon:
Not all warrior monk groups are fanatics/outwardly violent to others. It's been awhile since i read this but there was a group of warrior monks in (DAMN IT!!! i can't remember the country now) that were actually peaceful towards all they encountered unless forced to use violence. This stopped when the country got a new ruler who outlawed their beliefs and put into law that everyone following those beliefs were to be executed. That's when this group fled into the mountains to remain alive and keep their beliefs going. Those that didn't survive killed many in trying to do this. I can't remember all the details but i think that they were eventually all thought to be wiped out. If anyone knows what i'm talking about and can fill in the blanks i'd be very thankful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This wouldn't happen to be about the destruction of the Siu Lam monastary in China shortly after the Manchus(? or Hans, can't remember which) came into power? I think that this story is fairly well know (at least in Wing Tsun circles it is anyway).



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"Part of the inhumanity of the computer is that, once it is competently programmed and working smoothly, it is completely honest" - Isaac Asimov
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com