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uniforms

GKarsEye

Regular
OK folks, I call upon your expertise. I'd like to figure out what the deal was with the uniforms on Crusade. I understand they changed the order of the episodes at some point. Also, they changed the uniform at some point. Are the two related? Please someone help clear this up or point me to a resource that explains this.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>NOTE: All smart-ass dialogue in the following post is purely the invention of the author and is not based on any direct eye- or ear-witness accounts. But conversastions somewhat along these lines did take place.
smile.gif
)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's the deal:

When TNT bought Crusade JMS gave them two choices for how to start things off:

1) Tell the story from the beginning with a conventional "origin" show where the crew meets, and gets the ship, etc. (Think Encounter at Farpoint or The Emissary.)

2) Just jump right into the mission (ala Babylon 5 and Star Trek: TOS) and fill in the backstory as you go.

TNT went for option 2. The first episode is set several months into the mission, the crew already know each other, we hit the ground running. After the initial approvals from TNT corporate in Atlanta, all the liason on work was done by the folks at TNT Productions in Los Angeles, the same terrific bunch of people who got the network to pick up B5 in the first place, and who worked with Babylonian on season five. They're also responsible for the generally very good TV movies that TNT has been turning out for years.

Under this plan Babylonian productions turned out the first five episodes, starting with "Racing the Night." These featured the grey and red uniforms that the network had approved originally.

Around the time episode five was shooting, someone from TNT Corporate in Atlanta called someone at TNT Productions in L.A. The conversation went something this:

Corp: So, how do the dailies on Crusade look?

Prod: Don't know, haven't been over there to see them yet.

Corp: WHAT? How do you know what's happening with the show?

Prod: Look, we have a bunch of TV movies shooting, in pre-production and in post - all with deadlines. There are only so many hours in the day. The guys at Babylonian are pros, we've been working with them for over a year. We know the quality of their work. We don't have to hold their hands. We'll check out the footage next week.

Corp: No, we'll check out the footage tomorrow. *click*

Atlanta gets Babylonian Productions to ship them rough cuts of a couple of episodes, overnight. These cuts don't exist on film, they are in the form of Avid digital editing files. Avid uses a lo-res format (comparable to a GIF file) to save space. Avid images also tend to be darker than film images, which everyone who works on an Avid knows and makes allowances for. The guys at TNT don't work on the Avid. Also few or none of the FX shots have been produced at this point.

They see the footage and hate it. They don't like the pace of the episodes, they don't like the "feel" and most of all, they don't like the look. Everything is too dark. You can't see all the expensive sets and those grey uniforms just blend into the background. The call L.A. and order a production halt.

TNT sends reps to L.A. They repaint and redesign the sets and change the uniforms to something that will contrast better with the backgrounds. They still don't understand that the problems they think they saw don't exist on film, they only show up on the Avid files.

They also decide that they want an "origin" episode after all. They think the audience is too dumb to understand the mission from what is explained in "Racing the Night." JMS points out that this shouldn't be a problem since the plan has always been to run A Call to Arms immediately before the premier episode runs at 10 PM Eastern, and he wrote the "Racing" script with that plan in mind. No, TNT tells him,


TNT: We're not running ACtA before the first show. So we need a setup episode that really makes the story clear to the audience. And it should have action. Open it with a fist fight.

JMS: Well, this is going to mean a new script and rewriting some of the stuff in the pipeline because now we're starting the show five months earlier in the storyline. We'll have to set a couple in between the new first one and "Racing", and then we'll need an episode where we explain the change in uniforms.

TNT: No, we want all the new shows to use the new uniforms. We're paying for them, and we want to see them.

JMS: Huh? The new first episode takes place before "Racing" How are we supposed to have the crew in the new uniforms six months earlier, then change for five epiosdes, then change them back.

TNT: You're the writer, you figure it out.

Which JMS did. He wrote "War Zone" exactly to TNT's order (with the requested mutiny, fist-fight, reams of exposition and lack of references to B5 and Sheridan.) He wrote "Appearances and Other Deceits" to explain the uniform change (and make fun of TNT, although that part of the show went right over their heads.) He also wrote some lines into one of his upcoming scripts to explain how they switched "back" to the black uniforms.

He changed Gideon's first meeting with Lochley from the charming and underplayed encounter in "Each Night I Dream of Home" to the more romantic-comedy "cute meet" of the Peter David script, "Ruling from the Tomb", because he wanted to introduce Lochley fairly early in the season and "Each Night" had been pushed back past the mid-point instead of airing as episode five as planned.

He put the best possible public face on the whole thing when rumors of what had happened leaked out (including an internal TNT memo listing "improvements" that could be made to the show) and went back to shooting.

Then the notes got more ridiculous, he and TNT had their famous falling out, and production was shut down for good.

Unfortunately before the second "uniform change" episode was filmed, and without several other episodes being shot that were supposed to be intermingled with the existing 13.

The result is 13 episodes that have no entirely "right" airing order. Any way you slice it their are continuity errors because there was never time or money to reshoot scenes to cover them, and there are "missing" episodes in the mix. On the whole, and in story and character terms, JMS's order works best. TNT's order - all the "black uniform" shows first, leaves the crew using the nanotech shield before they invent it.

BTW, when the show finally debuted TNT did air ACtA on the same night - which should have elminated the need for "War Zone." Unfortunately, they ran it after the first episode of Crusade - which didn't make any sense.
smile.gif


Regards,

Joe


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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net

[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited July 11, 2001).]
 
Originally, the crew wore the uniforms form the explorer ships which were made for comfort and to be used in hostile enviroments. They were later changed to amke them look "dignified" to the publc.

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"All ships open fire! Repeat! Fire!"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally, the crew wore the uniforms form the explorer ships which were made for comfort and to be used in hostile enviroments. They were later changed to amke them look "dignified" to the publc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is completely and utterly wrong. Please read the post prior to yours if you'd like to know what actually happened.



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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
The reason I gave was the reason explained in the show. I just saw the episode a few weeks ago. It may not have been the reason why they changed in real life, but that was not what my explaination was for. So no, i was not [utterly wrong, i merely gave the explaination that appeared in the show. If you were such a big B5 fan you would have remembered that Joe.

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"All ships open fire! Repeat! Fire!"
 
Joe, thanks a lot, you really cleared it up for me.

I had always assumed that the 13 eps we saw were in order, I never thought of the possibility of "missing" episodes.

I always thought that episode where they're told to change their uniforms for "public image" was making fun of Hollywood and possibly their own "bosses" before I knew anything about the situation w/ TNT. It's amazing TNT missed that.

When one thinks about TNT's stupidity, it bogles the mind. They had a franchise, production company, and executive producer who was so extremely successful w/ B5 (the darn thing was syndicated and shown on the asshole of networks before TNT, yet got such a big following) that you would thing they'd leave it alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Skyraider:

Sorry I overreacted. The way you phrased that I thought you were talking about the RL explanation, not the in-show one. I thought I had covered the official EA "reason" in my post, but I see I didn't. (Probably cut it to make the TNT saga clearer.)

G'Kar's Eye:

It is easy to forget that TNT started out as the best friend B5 ever had. The reruns and the fifth season were the centerpiece of their January 1998 press promotion. The station was on the cover of the glossy flier they handed out, and the show got more pages of coverage than any other project they had going. They did more advertising and promotion for the show in one year than Warner Bros./PTEN had done in four. (I still have some of the original promo materials, including a couple of gorgeous theater-sized posters for In the Beginning and A Call to Arms.)

Then Crusade started, and the honeymoon was over.
smile.gif


Crusade was TNT's first-ever "created-for-them" dramatic series. (Ignore the fact that they have since launched at least two other one-hour dramas and claimed that each of them was "TNT's first dramatic television series."
smile.gif
) With B5 they were buying a known quantity and they knew that it was the last season. So the suits in Atlanta didn't get involved.

With Crusade, as with any new network series, the network expected to be involved in the "development" process. This is SOP. The network gets to approve the scripts, send notes on areas of concern, etc. and so forth on every series. The producers are expected to read them. But on a show like Crusade, where a writer-producer with a track-record is operating under a "Showrunner's" contract, the producers aren't usually bound to implement the network's suggestions. They just have to consider them.

Once Atlanta got involved, TNT violated this part of JMS's deal as well as just generally making fools of themselves, mostly because they had zero experience producing a weekly series and didn't know any better. It was sad. They should have been embarassed, but frankly, I don't think they have enough sense to realize how badly they handled the whole thing. And when JMS went public with his criticisms of the network they killed the Crusade/Sci-Fi deal and held onto the B5 reruns long past the point where they were making any money out of pure spite.

But I hasten to add that the TNT Los Angeles Production people are sweethearts. JMS has gone out of his way to draw a distinction between the two groups and has praised certain people in L.A. by name. I know a couple of them slightly (I still owe one of them lunch the next time she's in Florida
smile.gif
), and know that they remain big B5 fans. They're very disappointed with the whole situation.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Yeah, TNT was B5's best friend at first. In fact, I remember all the attention it got when season 5 started. I even remember it being the cover story of some entertainment magazine my mom reads. The cover had Lochley and one or two others in uniform; this was before I ever watched it, as I got into it during re-runs (I only remember Lochley 'cause she was hot).

That's exactly why it was so incredibly stupid for TNT to mess with them on Crusade. This is on my brain because the same thing is happening to me at work right now. Yes, I am the Babylon 5 of my office!
laugh.gif


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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
We have to remember that the MBAdiots who messed with Crusade were the classic "Pointy Haired Bosses" so artfully depicted in Babylon 5's "official" comic, Dilbert.

BTW, how many people knew that Scott Adams (who writes Dilbert) was the guy trying to hire Garibaldi to find his Cat & Dog??

It was his "reward" for the comments he made about B5 in a TV Guide interview. Which was a Hoot in itself. The interviewer was fishing for a Trek quote. They'd even selected a Dilbert outtake that had Dilbert saying: "Two Words: Star Trek" as the answer to "Why Dilbert Loves TV"

There were a couple of die hard Trek fans on the editorial staff at the time.

When Dilbert's comments about Voyager were rather short & Negative, coupled with saying that Babylon 5 is "the best television show ever made", it must have Really frosted them.
tongue.gif


But, when JMS saw his comment, Scott Adams was invited to do a Cameo. Also included in the deal was Adams' Girlfriend who happens to be an Actor. She is the Minbari who stood behind him while he talked to Garibaldi.



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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
There was a Simpsons episode that had two TV executives, constantly running around saying, "We have notes!" and giving extremely stupid suggestions, even on the air.

When I think of Crusade, I always think of that Simpsons ep.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
There was a Simpsons episode that had two TV executives, constantly running around saying, "We have notes!" and giving extremely stupid suggestions, even on the air.

When I think of Crusade, I always think of that Simpsons ep.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was the song
"You're So Vain, I bet you think this song's About You"
playing in the background?
laugh.gif




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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
I'm pretty sure it's 'Day of the Jackanapes', a Sideshow Bob one.

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Bus
"The pink ones keep ya from screamin'." Grandpa
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyRaider:
The reason I gave was the reason explained in the show. I just saw the episode a few weeks ago. It may not have been the reason why they changed in real life, but that was not what my explaination was for. So no, i was not [utterly wrong, i merely gave the explaination that appeared in the show. If you were such a big B5 fan you would have remembered that Joe.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now being a crusade fan, there is no continuity in the show because of the TNT babble and crap and you would also know that no explanation would be the absolute truth JMS is a trooper and really wouldn't be openly hostile about it(I did love the episode when the grey uniforms were introduced, he was so danged funny and it was a decent ep. it has really grown on me seeing it ten times so far) I had no idea he was telling TNT off, I just thought it was a hoot.

Think logic here, does any part of that grey uniform (no pockets, jacket too short, pants too loose in areas to be comfortable) look like they would be functional?

No, the black ones are better. I realize TNT forced that, but it was a better choice, for my eyesight the black works better and its danged sexy on all the men.

LOL

ok, my mind is in the gutter. it's my gutter, get the h e double sticks out of it.;

hehehehehehe

LOLOLOL


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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)

[This message has been edited by GideonsMine (edited July 24, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GideonsMine:
No, the black ones are better. I realize TNT forced that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nope... TNT requsted new uniforms and jms agreed since this was something he'd been considering himself. No forcing involved, and the credit for the design should go to Crusade's costume designer.
 
so the big boy's screwed
up and let a good show die,
and to twist the knife a
little deeper, TNT would'nt
let the scifi channel buy the
right's
mad.gif

how many ways can you say
screwed over?
mad.gif


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no surrender, no retreat
 
I agree. I like the black uniforms a lot better too. How do you know JMS was already thinking of changing them?

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Not many fishes left in the sea. Not many fishes, just Londo and me.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel:
How do you know JMS was already thinking of changing them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because he said so.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Originally posted by Ninja_Squirrel:
How do you know JMS was already thinking of changing them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Because he said so.


I am just hoping that they don't go back to the bellhop outfits when it comes back.

I could live with almost anything other than those.




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Colleen L. Stanford
Gideon's Mine, all Mine
(he just doesn't know it yet, LOL)
 
The other thing that will have been missing from the dailies TNT watched is the music. Since the music provides half the atmosphere to anyone outside film production Crusade would have felt very flat. They would not know what was missing and assume that it is something that you see.

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Andrew Swallow
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AndrewSwallow:
The other thing that will have been missing from the dailies TNT watched is the music. Since the music provides half the atmosphere to anyone outside film production Crusade would have felt very flat. They would not know what was missing and assume that it is something that you see.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't be too understanding of them. They were supposedlyprofessional network executives. They should have known that there were added dimensions. They were, after all viewing dailies--- before CGI, before soundtrack, before almost everything.

Dropped on their heads at birth? That's my current theory...
crazy.gif


Ro

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I have no surviving
enemies. At all.
 

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