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The Red Kiss thread


Beyond the rim
Summary for tonight's episode certainly seems to open more questions than answers. Looking forward to how this ep unfolds.
I hate Halloween episodes.
That said, I knew I would hate this one, simply 'cause you can't match "Firewall", plain and simple.
Egan plum doesn't hold up to JMS, thus from now on, I dub Sam Egan, Sam Egad. Egad, this guy has some definite room for improvement, and I hope he does as the series progresses. (or he just stops writing)
I could have written Jeremiah's letter to his father better than Egad did. And after seeing Kurdy's dream, it's great to see we're wasting our special effects budget. Also bringing in kids to save the day isn't going to give writer points for credibility. These kids didn't make me as angry as most child actors, but putting in kids for main roles is not wise. Not now, not ever. Egad's writing had better be First Season jitters. I want better.

Egad's episodes focus far more on the guest stars than Jeremiah or Kurdy, not only in "Kiss", but in the tragedy "The Bag" also. I know other people besides Jeremiah and Kurdy have stories to tell, but if you are going to make us listen to them, make their stories be interesting.

Next week: A cult episode. Boy, this is odd seeing Kurdy join a cult after he just told those kids to forget about the heroes in Heaven and focus on the world. Oh, and another thing, I hate cult episodes.
I agree that it was not the best episode ever, and nothing could really follow firewall. There are a few things though that were mentioned. Like all these kids in different areas doing the same religious type things. The guy saying his brother died from the Big D. Hopefully next weeks is better

I don't know why, but I really liked this episode. Of course, it reminded me some of the epsiode with the guy who was really into that comic book hero, but I liked it nonetheless. I suppose it got my imagination going with the beliefs of these children. What if they are right and there was this big battle raging in heaven? I always thought that this thing about all the adults being killed off sounded awfully similar to the whole killing off of the first born sons of Egypt. You basically got this "plague" of biblical porportions, main characters with biblical names ... maybe these kids are onto something. I mean this is from the guy that gave us the Shadows and the Vorlons... what's the difference between them and angels and demons? I'm not exactly saying that we're going to see the archangel Michael or anything, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if we did.
I totally agree with you about Egan. Compared to JMS, he's the creative equivalent of a chair. Not only that, but acting was hideous. The Zach character was bleackicharghhhhhh baaaad, and that one kid let's-go-save-the-day was annoying! Yeech. Overall: 5/10
Psion 10, I'm ashamed.

You used to be ruthless, horrible, and downright gloomy about pretty muchly every aspect of life. To see you...grading kindly on an episode such as this it's...it's...uhhh.

Hey Triad, I like the sig.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morden:
<font color=yellow>Psion 10, I'm ashamed.

You used to be ruthless, horrible, and downright gloomy about pretty muchly every aspect of life. To see you...grading kindly on an episode such as this it's...it's...uhhh.

Hey Triad, I like the sig.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Perhaps it's a case of, "Beware of Greeks bringing gifts." /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheTriad:
<font color=yellow>Or more appropriately, geeks.
/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Excellent suggestion. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
I'll side with P10 on this one. I liked it. There were some parts of that didnt sit well with me, and frankly I didnt understand fully, but I did like the twist that the primary "bad guy" in the episode added. I'll comment on more specifics and ask some questions on this one tomorrow...
Morden, I don't know if all the failings of this episode can be blamed on Egan since it could have been JMS' idea or the way the director handled the scenes or even the actor's fault in some cases. This wasn't my favorite episode either but it wasn't all bad. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif I am just not ready to lay all the blame on Egan ... I just don't know his style well enough yet to judge. However, I do understand some of the problems you had with the episode. /ubbthreads/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

You all can read my review on my site:

And here are the questions I came away with. They aren't great but then again, not much happened in this episode to move the arc forward either:

<ul type="square">[*] Where are the enclaves of Gramercy and Radford located?
[*] Where did the children's chant come from and what did it mean originally?
[*] Were the stories about God and Heaven passed around by word of mouth or is it just a common assumption that humans make in times like this?
[*] Does it really help people when they drink children's blood or is it just a sign that they are desperate enough to try anything?
[*] What kind of blood disease did Magyar have and why did he think it was related to the Big Death?

Another evil thought that I had but haven't posted on my site is ... what if the stories and myths about God and Heaven were planted by those in VS? Brainwash the young kids so they can manipulate them easier later on. Kinda like a low level Vorlon trick? I admit it is a far fetched speculation but I just had to put it out there. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif
I know I am hard on when I grade the show, but that is because I know Jeremiah is so much better than this. Jeremiah can do much better than this, so I expect to see it.
I finally saw The Red Kiss, and these are my questions.

- What is the blood disease Magyar had? Could it have been important, or was he just a nutcase? Is it related to what Farallon is doing?

- When the Big Death comes back (come on, we know it will, there are too many clues pointing to that particular plot point) how many people will believe in the blood-story? How many people will kill the children - the only hope - to save themselves in a vain effort?

- Maybe this was too obvious to be true, but what if this was the first taste of Jeremiah's final destiny in the show? Is Jeremiah the Chosen One, to put it in the children's parlance?

- I am also with Lyta on the VS thing. Such a thing could have been planted. And it's obvious the VS has an agenda and a plan and the means to carry it out - so it stands to reason that they're already beginning it. Plant the symbolism of light versus dark. The Valhalla Sector people could really symbolize light, in their funky silver suits. Angels. To children, at least, who have never seen such things.

- I wonder when we'll begin to see the manifest effects of Thunder Mountain's mobilization among the populace.

- One more thing. Anybody notice that the children had the thunder and the lightning symbolize angels and Heaven smiting the evil? Thunder Mountain? THUNDER Mountain?

Maybe I read too much into this show.

Next week, however, really worries me. It doesn't seem true to what we know and love about Kurdy that he would go join a religious cult. It really doesn't. They better have a really good explanation for this (seeing as it's juxtaposed with what Kurdy said about religion in this ep).
Well, I'm glad someone agrees with me. Yeah there were problems with the episode, but overall I liked it. Any episode that aired would have paled against firewall... and I'm not going to knock an episode simply because Egan wrote it instead of JMS.
I was just considering what the specific differences were between Firewall and The Red Kiss that makes everyone love the first and be so-so about the second. Looked at objectively, The Red Kiss is really pretty good. I think what blew people away about Firewall is that it had a certain frenetic energy, the "Was that only 45 minutes? It seemed like two hours worth!" level of energy that was typical of the second half of season four in B5. Think about it...Quantrell was captured during the teaser, and the rest of the ep covered a huge amount of territory in a very short time. That's the kind of storytelling we love and remember from B5.

But we've also gotta remember season one of B5, when the stories were a lot about characters and building the universe. Seen from that perspective, The Red Kiss was really a pretty decent ep.

And yeah, I can already detect a considerable stylistic difference between Egan and JMS, but I'm not prepared to write Egan off and say he's second-rate. It is, after all, JMS's story, and it takes anyone some time to become comfortable in someone else's universe.
I am sure there was a LOT of hidden messages in all the religious talk in this episode. More than I would be able to uncover myself, thats for sure. Channe I think was on to something in catching the Thunder with the Childrens alter. I think this episode was PACKED with things like that, just that we may not have noticed them. And yes, I think it was blatantly obvious that they are setting Jeremiah to be "the one" for this series. I am sure that was done intentionally. But, getting to what I said before, I am sure there were lots of messages in the religious talk and references, I am just not keen enough on that subject to catch them.
The way the children's "religion" spread is reminiscent of Christianity and Islam. One of the great mysteries of history is that, according to (very) limited historical accounts, it seems as if Christianity sort of started in different places at around the same time, spread out over such a great distance that it's implausible that it could have been just a group of people traveling about preaching. The difficulties lie with it being a non-official underground cult, so that records are hard to come by.

Islam has some similar gaps in our understanding of its origins, but the fact that it was mostly spread via conquest makes its early history easier to understand.

The point is, religions, or supersitious beliefs, spread like wildfire, in ways that often don't work when you try to analyze the individual elements of the situation.

I wasn't that surprised when Jeremiah and Kurdy were talking about how children seperated by great distances held similar practices and beliefs.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
<font color=yellow>I wasn't that surprised when Jeremiah and Kurdy were talking about how children seperated by great distances held similar practices and beliefs.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I agree 100%. But what REALLY caught me is that they also commente that the kids were using the EXACT same chant. Having the same beliefs is one thing, duplicating the same type of ceremony and worship is another. THAT seemed very strange to me.
That chant is gonna come in again. I bet you anything.

There's definitely more to this chant, definitely more. It just isn't quite clear yet.

We'll find out... someday.
Yea, maybe the chant is in some ways like Sheridan's dream in B5. There was a lot in it that played on later down the road. Maybe there is a lot more we can take from this episode, we just havent been given all the pieces to see it yet.

Then again, sometimes a chant is just a chant. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

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