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The Great Link

"Still JMS must be quite pleased if it is a knock-off, as to copy ones ideas is the greatest form of praise."

Let me steal your car and see if you feel the same way afterward.

jms


I had no idea of the gravity of this sentiment, having drawn my conclusions mostly from just watching the two shows. I'd always liked ST, and never watched B5 until in went to TNT. Having seen DS9 during it's premiere run and not really seeing it again in syndication until recently, I never really thought about it until the seventh season - right after B5 ended.

Who knew that Paramount were the Bill Gates of Sci-fi TV?
rolleyes.gif
 
Welcome to showbiz. This stuff happens all the time. Why do you think in one year you get 2 movies about an asteroid hitting earth? If they were spread out but in the same year? This happens in hollywood it happens in big businesses it happens in politics.
 
Wow! Two great shows for the price of one idea, I'll take it!

Really, if you're going to diss DS9 because you don't like it, fine. But if you're going to do it because of what Paramount did, then get mad at Paramount. I personally like both shows and can't stand Paramount; I think they've managed to screw around with trek pretty much all its TV and movie life.

I think the writing was overall pretty good (and sometimes great) on DS9 and the acting was excellent. My own opinion was that the addition of Worf certainly added some more texture and humor to the show, but I think I still would have liked it without him. The only change I didn't really like was the way they handled the Ezri Dax character in the last season; seems like all they were trying to do was get her in bed with someone.
 
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by crofootski: </font color>
Really, if you're going to diss DS9 because you don't like it, fine. But if you're going to do it because of what Paramount did, then get mad at Paramount. I personally like both shows and can't stand Paramount; I think they've managed to screw around with trek pretty much all its TV and movie life.

I don't like most of DS9 based upon it's own merits, not because of what I later found out about Paramount/DS9 and B5. I formed my opinion about DS9 (and Voyager, BTW) long before I'd ever heard of B5 (~75% through Season 3 of it's first run on PTEN). What I found out even later (late 1999), about Paramount/DS9 and B5 only makes me dislike Paramount.


<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by crofootski: </font color>
The only change I didn't really like was the way they handled the Ezri Dax character in the last season; seems like all they were trying to do was get her in bed with someone.

I didn't like that character either. It was at least partially because of the actress. Liked Jadzia much more, and followed Terry Farrell to Becker.
 
Nicole de Baer is really hot as well, however. I liked Ezri a lot more than most people.

Don't forget, Claudia Christian quit too! People always have their reasons for moving on from a popular show... but it rarely works out.

-Tim
 
>I run a B5 site, so my love of it is clear, but I just have to stick up for DS9 over B5. I think DS9 is the better show, to be honest.

confused.gif
Whoa. . .hold on there a second! Did someone hack into the site or something??? I thought this was where the hardcore B5 fans (like me) hung out. The reason we can't all join hands and do a happy dance in celebration of good SF on television is BECAUSE PARAMOUNT DOESN'T WANT TO. They didn't just plagarize B5, they tried to club it out of the marketplace and sabotage it any way they could. They even threatened to produce a show called "Babylon" just to deliberately try and confuse people even more. B5's don't grow on trees. B5 fans know there is nothing else quite like it on television.
Antony, perhaps you should have reserved your comments for a Star Trek group. (failing that, you might want to issue an apology to the B5 fans here.) I might have to quit coming here now
frown.gif
 
A bit of an overreaction dont you think?

Its not his job to make his opinions all pro-B5. He runs a fan site, he loves the show, and if he likes DS9 better, so be it. That doesnt make him less of a B5 fan does it? People can like both you know.
 
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Ivanovafan: </font color>
Antony, perhaps you should have reserved your comments for a Star Trek group. (failing that, you might want to issue an apology to the B5 fans here.) I might have to quit coming here now.
frown.gif

Yeah, that part is a bit of an overreaction.
 
I want to thank Ant for giving us the best messageboard on the net. I read that he gave up the opportunity to start an Enterprise website (with its associated guaranteed income) in order to give us B5lr.com. And he has still stuck with us even after the pilot never went to a series.

As for the thread, reading it just makes me angry. I can feel jms's rage at paramount. Seeing this brought up again just makes me pissed off cos B5 is very dear to me. However, I think newbies have a right to now this side of the story. Especially as the B5 had to fight against massive PR odds during its run. Imagine if Paramount had succeeded: Not getting to see the tragedy of Londo, The suffering and enlightenment of G'kar, the sacrifice of Sheridan or the destiny of Delenn (to paraphrase jms). We would never have seen the magnificent swooping and banking of the Whitestar, etc. My existence would be poorer for the loss.

So Ant likes DS9 better than B5. That's his opinion and its no less valuable than any of ours. For me the only department where DS9 was better was in the production design and that comes down purely to budget. JMS didn't help things by having Talia embed the penny in the polystyrene walls in A Race Through Dark Places.

I've seen threads on the Trek BBS like: What didn't you like about B5, so I'm gonna try and start a similar one about DS9 here. Understand that DS9 was my absolute favourite show in the whole world until I saw B5. The 1st, 3rd and 4th seasons of DS9 were shown in SA, I bought Favor the Bold and Sacrifice of Angels on tape and read the novelisation of What You Leave Behind.

One thing that strikes me is that the DS9 writers were 2-Dimensional. In Sacrifice of Angels theres this huge Dominion Cardassian armada between Sisko and DS9 and he takes his Federation fleet right into the fray. Why doesn't he send a small force to go up and over or under and around the battle. Space is frelling 3D! And the end of the episode with Sisko and the Prophets reminded me a lot of Into the Fire.
 
This is not the first board that ever discussed about this...actually something like that came out in a chat room in Malaysia once, I was the only B5er in there and some others were Trekkers(majority of Malaysian prefers Star Trek to B5) and they were saying that DS9 is not really a copycat and was way cooler...It was sorta a debate,but I've never watched DS9 before and I told them,then they were almost starting an argument,They really need to Chill man!!! So i left,bet they felt I was a sore loser!
 
I am afraid Antony's opinions are his own and no one else's .I may not agree with them but I think you can still like both shows and be happy with them.I also think the fact that he does run a Babylon 5 messageboard does in it self say something instead of yet another star trek board.We have enough of those already.
 
After having watched the first dvd of ds9 I am not impressed unless this series improves greatly I won't be buying anymore.The books were a lot more interesting and still are I can tell you which characters I don't like already.Babylon 5 in my opinion has nothing to fear from this show .Babylon 5 forever,
 
and remember. THE GATHERING lol

You always have to give a show a chance to develop.

1. Never judge it unless you have seen at least the first 5 eps!!

2. The end of the first season for a good show should make you feel "yeah, it has a future", or at least give you an urge that you would watch the second season if it happened to be on at the right time

3. and we all know that, in a good show, seasons after the first season - kick major ass!!!!
 
Time to stop my long years of lurking.

The most damming evidence of Paramount's attempt too destroy Babylon 5 is in the timing.

What are the chances of Paramount making a huge and very surprise announcement of a TNG spin-off, right in the middle of B5's pilot production? Almost all other new shows for that season had been announced, and had commenced production well before that point in time. Also Paramount had a history of very long lead times in developing each of there other new Star Trek shows, from the aborted 1970's Star Trek II, up through Enterprise. All except DS9, a show that suspiciously seemed to come out of nowhere The fans usually knew what Paramount had in mind, from studio leaks, far before any of these shows even got close to production. But no heads-up at all for DS9. It's impossible to totally prevent information from leaking out on something as big and lusted after as a new TNG show, except if it was a spur of the moment thing and there had been no early info to leak in the first place. And on top of that the new TNG show, based on a Space Station positioned in the middle of antagonistic empires, just happened to come into being at just that exact moment in history? Amazing timing!

Then remember that Star Trek was almost thirty years old as of then and had always been about traveling from place to place, hence the word "Trek" in the title, but was now to make a surprisingly radical change in direction and become about an immobile Space Station, with the trouble coming to them. It's impossible to believe that after thirty years the TNG guy's would just happen to think that up at exactly the same time that B5 went into production.

After that, factor in that Paramount had to rush DS9 into production, even using TNG sets for the into ep, and was still so late that the first year is short of episodes. That kind of rushing costs big money in the film production world. DS9 even overlaps the last year of TNG and makes one wonder why they didn't want to wait until the previous show had ended, and then, dovetail into the new show with a full first year. They could have spent the last year of TNG to carefully develop there next big show, instead of off the cuff. What was the hurry, I ask?

I say, that for the first time, Paramount knew that there was a real contender for the crown of best SF show and that was B5. After almost thirty years of a monopoly on SF TV paramount saw B5 as the first real threat to there billion dollar franchise, saw that B5 might reveal, by good example, just how bland and uninspired TNG had become, and they fought back. Hard!

Paramount produced a show so much like B5 that it would confuse the potential new audience, and infuriate the hard core TNGr's by making them think that B5 was ripping off there show! I have a friend that is still a, religious level, TNG fan and he refuses to watch or even talk about B5 to this day! Hell, for years I had to educate people as to which show came first, and then they usually still dismiss B5. Actually I believe that Paramount hoped that the threat of DS9 would cause Warner Brothers to scuttle B5 after its pilot. JMS, himself, said that almost happened. As it is "The Gathering" was put on a shelf for six months and the first season was put off till the next year. By then DS9 was ready for its second year and the rest is history.

I really do think that if B5 hadn't had the much bigger duplicate show dogging it, that it would of had a critical mass in the ratings, become far more watched and would of led to B5 becoming a viable long term franchise. We could all be talking about how good year four of Crusade is right now, instead of this painful discussion.

By the way. I do love the original Star Trek and its six movies and even the animated years. I consider anything after Kirk and crew to be TNG, not Star Trek. The continuities and spirit are just to different to me. In some ways I think B5 is closer to classic Trek than TNG is.

Hope my first time posting doesn't make me look like a fool. And I hope I don't upset anyone.



TWT
 
Another compelling thought to consider:
Gene Roddenberry was an atheist. In thirty years he had done everything possible to expunge religion from his show. The only thing that I can remember is a vague reference to Diwali, "the Hindu festival of lights" that Data mentions in his opening narration to Data's Day.
Suddenly they come out with a series where religion and prophecy is a huge part of the pilot. We've seen before and since how fearful Paramount is of messing with the Star Trek universe, shaking up the Federation, etc and here they break completely with Roddenberry's mandate.
I'm just glad jms got to complete the project and once all the dvd's are out I couldn't give a frell what the critics /non-fans say. I'll have it forever.

Just FYI, in Shatner's "Star Trek Memories" he states that Roddenberry completely abandoned the 3rd season of the show. JMS would never do that.

I find it really funny how in DS9's first season finale Kai Opaka says "Your pagh and mine will meet again" and that is never followed up. Kinda shows which one was the unfinished story.
 
Suddenly they come out with a series where religion and prophecy is a huge part of the pilot.

In defense of ST (I say reluctantly), this may be because DS9 was the first series created by someone other than Gene. Granted, Berman did have a bit of time at the end of TNG, but he was mainly messing with Gene's baby there. DS9 was partly his creation, so he might've just been wanting to try a different idea.
 

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