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The End of the Third Age of Mankind

Galahad

Galahad

Regular
I loved the final sequence in Deconstruction of Falling Stars, with the vorlonesque ranger ship zipping off as Earth is consumed.

Seeing as the Minbari and Humans are the only two out of the identified younger races to achieve a first one status, are the Ranger vessels (what the heck else are we supposed to call them?) crewed only by Human and Minbari.

Do the Human and Minbari races completely co-exist, or do they have independent new homeworlds.

Do they still have independent fleets with personalised tech, granted the tech would be of similar level, but it would be nice to see aesthetic differences in design.

I have often been poo pooed for this, but is there a significance in the coincidence of Earth's destruction and the vorlon ban on venturing onto their former homeworld.

By the time we reach the fourth age, do you think the First Ones will have got anywhere interesting?

I like the glowing ball/encounter suit bit, as they are nice visual identifiers as to the eventual destiny of humanity in the B5 arc.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
 
I also think the ship looks like a green and black whale with two tentacles!

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
 
i dont believe the minbari and humans coexist

i personally believe that the minbari had gone beyond the rim by then (i mean they are old enough )


but what of the drazi ??
the gaim and all of the other races what happened to them ??


and does the date have anything to do with ironheart ? didnt he say to sinclair see you in a million years ??

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sheridan knows ... but what remains to be seen is wether he knows that he knows ......
lorien -- into the fire
------------------------visit my website - http://www.babylonfive.net
 
I think what happened was that the Minbari and the Humans survived. The Drazi, the Gaim, the Centauri, the Narn, the others - they didn't have the chutzpah. Well, that was implied during the series.

Remember we saw Ranger insignia on the side of that ship...

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS
 
JMS never said the other races necessarily died out, just that they didn't reach First One status. I read that in an interview or two.

We have so little information to go on about the future that far ahead, just that little teaser.

I reckon the ship was sentient. The way the ranger spoke to it, implied that they had some kind of basic relationship. He spoke to the ship with emotion. Maybe the ship is a s much a part of him, as Kosh's ship was to it's occupier.

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
 
It would make for an interesting book,but I reckon that the Minbari and humans coexist unlike the shadows and vorlons who didn't learn from past mistakes.The future ranger was compiling all the stored data so that it was not lost when Sol went nova so they could look back and learn.......

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957
 
I would believe that the others not only survived and did well...

...but simply tried to destroy each other a couple of more times, which eventually set back their development into a status described as "First Ones" -- beings revered for not simply their age, but their great knoledge and power. A knowledge and power so great that it would produce harm if given to those who have no experience in using it.

And eventually, being a First One means nothing if you have not learned a bit. For the Shadows and Vorlons, it meant nothing. The significant message of "Deconstruction" to me was that those First Ones were studying their history, the path that lead to their existence, the path that lead to mistakes committed by the previous generation of First Ones.

They knew of the Vorlons and Shadows, of Lorien, of their wars and departure. They knew the people who ended the Shadow wars and the reasons why this had to end. Not having forgotten, they could imagine themselves in the place of others and do to others what they would wish done to themselves.

If they knew and studied this, they would be likely to avoid the mistakes made by Vorlons and Shadows. They would have eventually learned a bit, done something to justify the power they had achieved.

The message for me was: "what we do may not be irrelevant". One day, somebody might learn from what we did. Them learning something might become possible due to what we did. Some good might come of this.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 17, 2001).]
 
JMS said in an interview once that the Narn and Centauri never became 'first ones', but the hmans and Minbari did. As for the others.... who knows?

WarpPig

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I believe that the humans and Minbari may have cojoined as a species somewhere in the future before becoming like the First Ones. Sinclair's DNA was dispersed throughout uncounted Minbari way back in 2261, so you can imagine what those little genes might have been doing in the meantime. Also, David Sheridan, although outwardly human (in other words, not a bonehead ~ Centauri Trilogy)possessed combined human and Minbari DNA. The effect of his procreating with either a Human or Minbari would markedly increase the gene swap. So, both races probably made it to First One staus together.

Jason Ironheart was boosted to First One status pretty damn quick, and I always took his "see you in a million years" quote as a metaphorical statement to the human race in general. He knew the future of evolution, because he WAS that future.

Furthermore, the timing of the Vorlon statement was dropped with the subtlety of a flying mallet. Lyta stated that the Vorlon Homeworld was "off limits for a million years - until we are ready". Then fast forward a million years and the Rangers are departing for "New Earth".

Not too tough to figure out where they're going, eh?

We really don't know for sure about the other races, other than the Narn and Centauri, whom JMS said didn't quite make it.

Uhoh. You know, I think when jMS mentioned the Minbari becoming First Ones, eh said it took them a little longer, but they finally got there. Gonna have to check that.



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"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."

[This message has been edited by B5_Obsessed (edited November 18, 2001).]
 
In my opinion they would not go to the Vorlon homeworld.

It is the Vorlon homeworld. The home and birthplace of the Vorlon species. It has an atmosphere suitable for the Vorlons, a climate suitable for the Vorlons, a terrain suitable to the Vorlons, other creatures whose company only a Vorlon would appreciate. As we well know, the Vorlons have quite exotic tastes.

With technology comparable to that of the Vorlons one could go there and even live there. But as beings who originate from Earth, whose ancestors breathed oxygen, walked on two legs and felt comfortable at room temperature, the humans of the future would not feel at home over there.

What if the early Vorlons breathed carbon monoxide and swam in liquified gas, building their first cities on islands of solid matter floating between layers of liquid gas? At a temperature which would make "your arm fall off and shatter like an icicle".

Just a "what if" question to point out how different the Vorlon homeworld might be. It might be barren like Mars, melting hot like Venus or a liquid gas giant like Jupiter. Certainly an interesting place to visit, but not necessarily comfortable to live on/in.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 18, 2001).]
 
The only things we know for sure about the Vorlons are that they have a Silicon based metabolism and seem to enjoy a very Exotic atmosphere.

Two things taht would make it very unlikely that Humans, no matter how evolved, would find the Vorlon homeworld a comfortable place.

Especially not when there are lots of nice worlds with Oxygen atmospheres around.

Personally, I'd bet on them finding a few devastated solar systems somewhere (the Shadow Wars left a lot of these behind) that never recovered from what the Shadow wars did to it and using the raw materials to build themselves a new home.

Depending on the human birth rate, they might also need more room than you'd find on an ordinary planet.
I would expect them to build a Dyson Sphere.
Such a construct has a Lot of advantages.
Almost undetectable from outside.
Huge amounts of living space.




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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
Maybe they could be "friends", but I don't know about the teamwork.. After all, humans and minbari have their own religious system, different "life style" and so on..

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Logical thinking - Perfect weapon
 
"There old enough aren't they?"
The answer is, well, no. The Minbari are only older than the humans by a thousand years or two(I forget which). Besides reaching first one status does not automatically mean you leave for the rim. When your presence hinders younger races from progressing and you've learned about all you can in that part of space it's time to leave and make some room.

We also don't know that Vorlons necessarily enjoy an exotic environment. It may be that since they can survive in it and other races find it unpleasant it was choosen to discourage visits.

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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
 
How old were the Vorlons supposed to be, anyway? I was just wondering how long a typical sun would be lasting.

I always had the impression that the Vorlons were very long lived. Was the Vorlon homeworld necessarily the original one?

Just a thought.

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers
 
I think that the humans of that time probably went to live on some far-off Earth controlled colony planet somewhere, not the Vorlon Homeworld. Plus I also think that there could be a possibility that they could have co-joined with the Minbari, but the man at the end of DoFS, did not look part Minbari at all, so that is not likely. But I do remember Delenn mentioning that the Minbari would join with the other half of their souls, so that would seem to indicate a possible co-join with the Humans. But out of the younger races, they seem to be the most likely to reach First One status, leaving the Narns, Centauri and others behind.

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Lorien: Who are you?
RW: The salad man.
Lorien: Why are you here?
RW: To be the salad ambassador.
Lorien: What do you want?
RW: Everyone to know the joys of salad.
Lorien: Do you have anything worth living for?
RW: Yes, my salad bars.
 
One of the Duties of an elder race, once Humand & Minbari reach that stage, is to help Younger Races out.
When they can.

Remember Lorien's words to the Vorlons and Shadows:

"As we taught you and stepped aside, so the time has come for you to step aside..."

When Lorien leaves, he reminds Sheridan and Delenn that Humans, Minbari and any other races that reach the same point have the same duty:
First teach, guide and help.
Then, step aside when the younger races learn enough to stand on their own feet.

Hypatia, I believe it was mentioned somewhere that Kosh was about a Million years old. And that he was Young for a Vorlon.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "There are beings in the universe billions of years older than either of our races. Once, long ago, they walked among the stars like giants, vast, timeless. Taught the younger races, explored beyond the rim, created great empires, but to all things, there is an end. Slowly, over a million years, the First Ones went away. Some passed beyond the stars never to return. Some simply disappeared."

Delenn in Babylon 5:"In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum"

"There are beings in the universe billions of years older than any of our races. They walked among the stars like giants, vast, timeless. They created great empires, taught the new races, explored beyond the rim. The oldest of the ancients are the Shadows. We have no other name for them."

Delenn in Babylon 5:"Matters of Honor" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Both of Delenn's descriptions of the First Ones mention Billions of years.
She also says that it took a Million years for the migration beyond the rim.

Most likely sources of that information:

Kosh. We don't really know how much he told Delenn.
Certainly more than he told anyone Else.

Archaeology. The Minbari would be exploring old worlds for the same reasons IPX does.
Looking for useful information.
Since they've been doing it for at least 1000 years, they have probably learned quite a bit.
They might even have found a few First One worlds.
What's left of them.

After all, even the Narn, newcomers as they are, have learned about the First Ones.
And learned Not to stick their noses in at Sigma957.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
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