Mr. Bester
Beyond the rim
Will Sheridan and Valen ever return from beyond the rim?
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Sheridan and Valen
- Thread starter Mr. Bester
- Start date
I think it's more likely one more will join them. Maybe there is a bit of a romantic in me if I think all three ones could reunite beyond the rim.
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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
Will Sheridan and Valen ever return from beyond the rim?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess it is possible Sheridan cpuld retrun some day..but I beleive it is highly unlikly.
And with Valen we don't even know that he went beyound the rim.
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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
Will Sheridan and Valen ever return from beyond the rim?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess it is possible Sheridan cpuld retrun some day..but I beleive it is highly unlikly.
And with Valen we don't even know that he went beyound the rim.
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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au
Sinclair
Moderator
Interesting...I'd never thought of that, Doc. That would be kind of cool to see. Who knows, maybe something like that will happen.
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"I welcome you and present this place to you as a gift. I am called Valen, and we have much work ahead of us."
-Valen, War Without End Pt.2
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"I welcome you and present this place to you as a gift. I am called Valen, and we have much work ahead of us."
-Valen, War Without End Pt.2
As far as we know, Delenn died like everyone else. Although Sheridan and Valen "went beyond the Rim," Delenn's still quite dead. Unless her spirit gets reincarnated.
That would make a cool fanfic.
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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS
That would make a cool fanfic.
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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Although Sheridan and Valen "went beyond the Rim," Delenn's still quite dead. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, we don't know What happened to Valen, other than that he left the Minbari.
It's a mystery to the Minbari, also.
One of the things JMS has hinted at is that Delenn's death occurs while she is trying to Find Out where Valen went.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And there's some difference of opinion over exactly what Valen's final fate was.
jms
Garibaldi's death (a much quieter passing than he would have imagined waiting for him), Franklin's final fate on a distant, unexplored planet, Delenn's final journey (a quest involving Valen, though no one else around her believes it), Lennier's sacrifice... it's all mapped out, on the theory that whether or not it ever gets used, *I* had to know it.
JMS
> What's beyond the Rim?
A really, really, really MASSIVE Baskin & Robbins....
JMS
The main motive for going beyond the rim... there's a heck of a big Taco Bell out there....
jms
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
Actually, we don't know What happened to Valen, other than that he left the Minbari.
It's a mystery to the Minbari, also.
One of the things JMS has hinted at is that Delenn's death occurs while she is trying to Find Out where Valen went.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>And there's some difference of opinion over exactly what Valen's final fate was.
jms
Garibaldi's death (a much quieter passing than he would have imagined waiting for him), Franklin's final fate on a distant, unexplored planet, Delenn's final journey (a quest involving Valen, though no one else around her believes it), Lennier's sacrifice... it's all mapped out, on the theory that whether or not it ever gets used, *I* had to know it.
JMS
> What's beyond the Rim?
A really, really, really MASSIVE Baskin & Robbins....
JMS
The main motive for going beyond the rim... there's a heck of a big Taco Bell out there....
jms
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
AngelSummers
Beyond the rim
I dunno. Sinclair or Valen I thought was pretty much dead. Note that he has never met Lorien nor has he ever come to understood the ancient conflict of the Shadow and Vorlons. As far as he knew in that time, the Shadows were an ancient enemy that had to be stopped. And it was his destiny to stop them in the past.
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> And part of his motivation to go back in time was to find Catherine Sakai, his lost fiancee who accidentally enter the time rift while on a mission to prevent the Shadows from exploiting the rift before Draal's Great Machine could exert full control over the time rift.</font></td></tr></table>
The above is exerpt from "To Dream in the City of Sorrows". If any material is cannon, its this book because it was written by Katherine Drennan, the beloved consort of our beloved writer JMS.
And if what the comics say is true, Sinclair did find Sakai and lived happily ever after.
This was also implied in the epilogue of the book.
Back to the original question, it is up to debate what happened to Sheridan himself. My interpretion is that he DID die, but his soul or mind travelled with Lorien to heaven rather than experience all the unpleasantess of leaving your physical body. For all we know, when Lorien sez Beyond the Rim he not necessarily talks of a mortal plane. Maybe it's a place between heaven and earth (pun intended) where all the First Ones have gone to leave space for the younger races. Lorien said "we have been waiting for you". It could mean Sheridan elevated into a higher form of life or just have a final meeting with the First Ones before completely leaving the mortal realm. My personal opinion? He is dead. Let's leave it at dead. If not, Delenn will be one lonely soul in Heaven because she's the only one who actually died among the tree.
Thinking of all this makes me wanna cry. I still say Sleeping in Light is the best episode I have ever seen. May Rangers be just as good though with a different storyline. I hope JMS doesn't carbon copy his B5 artwork though given his creativity, I don't think so. (Touch wood)
Take care of yourselves, people of America.
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> And part of his motivation to go back in time was to find Catherine Sakai, his lost fiancee who accidentally enter the time rift while on a mission to prevent the Shadows from exploiting the rift before Draal's Great Machine could exert full control over the time rift.</font></td></tr></table>
The above is exerpt from "To Dream in the City of Sorrows". If any material is cannon, its this book because it was written by Katherine Drennan, the beloved consort of our beloved writer JMS.
And if what the comics say is true, Sinclair did find Sakai and lived happily ever after.
Back to the original question, it is up to debate what happened to Sheridan himself. My interpretion is that he DID die, but his soul or mind travelled with Lorien to heaven rather than experience all the unpleasantess of leaving your physical body. For all we know, when Lorien sez Beyond the Rim he not necessarily talks of a mortal plane. Maybe it's a place between heaven and earth (pun intended) where all the First Ones have gone to leave space for the younger races. Lorien said "we have been waiting for you". It could mean Sheridan elevated into a higher form of life or just have a final meeting with the First Ones before completely leaving the mortal realm. My personal opinion? He is dead. Let's leave it at dead. If not, Delenn will be one lonely soul in Heaven because she's the only one who actually died among the tree.
Thinking of all this makes me wanna cry. I still say Sleeping in Light is the best episode I have ever seen. May Rangers be just as good though with a different storyline. I hope JMS doesn't carbon copy his B5 artwork though given his creativity, I don't think so. (Touch wood)
Take care of yourselves, people of America.
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
Galahad
Regular
Another aspect of course is what Delenn really saw in the temple whaen she was a child. Was it a hallucination? Was it a vision? Or maybe, just maybe it WAS Valen or at least an ethereal representation of him comforting her in her hour of need. If she put any weight in that event at all, it might be what provided her with the impetus to seek out Valen towards the end.
I'd like to think that she travelled the length and breadth of the galaxy to find him, and returned home in failure, in dismay she entered the temple again and in her last moments of life, Valen appears to her and comforts her till the end. What became of her after that I do not know, but I'd like to think she goes beyond the rim too, but in a slightly different way to Sheridan.
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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"
"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
I'd like to think that she travelled the length and breadth of the galaxy to find him, and returned home in failure, in dismay she entered the temple again and in her last moments of life, Valen appears to her and comforts her till the end. What became of her after that I do not know, but I'd like to think she goes beyond the rim too, but in a slightly different way to Sheridan.
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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"
"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
Recoil
Regular
Interesting that some people believe that Valen simply 'died' as a lot of others did. I was given the distinct impression that his body was never found either and his whereabouts were as much a mystery as Sheridan. In FACT, when the Minbari described Sheridan's passing they were drawing a parallel to how Valen passed. Lorien came back for Sheridans soul or spirit, its entirely possible that the Vorlons took special care of Valen as well, seeing as they knew who he was and where he was from, and how he figured into everything long before anyone else did. As for Deleen I thought she also 'disappeared' as well leading to the fact that all 3 of 'The One's' passed away in the same manner. Who knows though...
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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
QUOTE] I think it's more likely one more will join them. Maybe there is a bit of a romantic in me if I think all three ones could reunite beyond the rim. [/QUOTE]
I always thought that delean would go beyond the rim as well. Seridan went and so did Valen so why not delean. Perhapse in her final quest to find valen she ends up being taken beyond the rime with lorien and they are reunited were no shadows fall.
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Scott Gifford
Please pardon the spelling errors, grammer errors and various sarcastic overtures
I always thought that delean would go beyond the rim as well. Seridan went and so did Valen so why not delean. Perhapse in her final quest to find valen she ends up being taken beyond the rime with lorien and they are reunited were no shadows fall.
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Scott Gifford
Please pardon the spelling errors, grammer errors and various sarcastic overtures
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
And there is one more possibility, this one partly based on the Minbari belief in souls. You see, the three aforementioned guesses may not necassarily exclude each other. They could have done all of it: gone beyond the Rim, died and possibly met again.
Perhaps "going beyond the Rim" was nothing but another journey in this world. Perhaps either Sheridan alone or all three were simply given a little trip by the First Ones -- introduced to what lies beyond the borders of the world they had imagined. As a gesture of respect and thankfulness.
I suspect this basing on what became of Sheridan: if Lorien had enough respect for him to find him again, he would have also asked Sheridan *if* he wants to go... Lorien is not a Soul Hunter, he would doubtlessly give a choice. But Lorien treated the matter casually, as if Sheridan's final destination would be the same anyway.
This is why I think the matter was casual. No heaven, no eternity, nothing final, simply a lift out of galaxy -- giving Sheridan a chance to satisfy his curiosity, to see the world from the First Ones' point of view.
But the First Ones are not eternal. They not only die, but even kill each other. To consider them above or different from other life would be a mistake. They are typical sentient beings, wise and long-lasting but not different in principle.
Therefore I tend to think that eventually all optins came true. No matter if all three went beyond the Rim or not, eventually they all died. If they did not meet beyond the Rim, they met where no shadows fall. Perhaps they felt they had fulfilled their purpose and dissolved in the universe, or perhaps they had more to do, something to continue and someone to come back for.
I would suspect the latter. Perhaps they came back in other times, other lives. Perhaps that was where they met again?
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Such stories always end with a question, and this is the best way of ending them. Leaving all options open, to be interpreted by each as he or she wants.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 13, 2001).]
Perhaps "going beyond the Rim" was nothing but another journey in this world. Perhaps either Sheridan alone or all three were simply given a little trip by the First Ones -- introduced to what lies beyond the borders of the world they had imagined. As a gesture of respect and thankfulness.
I suspect this basing on what became of Sheridan: if Lorien had enough respect for him to find him again, he would have also asked Sheridan *if* he wants to go... Lorien is not a Soul Hunter, he would doubtlessly give a choice. But Lorien treated the matter casually, as if Sheridan's final destination would be the same anyway.
This is why I think the matter was casual. No heaven, no eternity, nothing final, simply a lift out of galaxy -- giving Sheridan a chance to satisfy his curiosity, to see the world from the First Ones' point of view.
But the First Ones are not eternal. They not only die, but even kill each other. To consider them above or different from other life would be a mistake. They are typical sentient beings, wise and long-lasting but not different in principle.
Therefore I tend to think that eventually all optins came true. No matter if all three went beyond the Rim or not, eventually they all died. If they did not meet beyond the Rim, they met where no shadows fall. Perhaps they felt they had fulfilled their purpose and dissolved in the universe, or perhaps they had more to do, something to continue and someone to come back for.
I would suspect the latter. Perhaps they came back in other times, other lives. Perhaps that was where they met again?
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Such stories always end with a question, and this is the best way of ending them. Leaving all options open, to be interpreted by each as he or she wants.
[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 13, 2001).]
This is why I love this show. We can talk about stuff like this five years after the show, and there's enough information for us to speculate. I can't do that with any other show...
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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS
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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS
AngelSummers
Beyond the rim
Let's just give ourselves the benefit of the doubt and call it a mystery. We can argue about till the end of time and JMS still will not tell. Let's just take the story for what it is.
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
AngelSummers
Beyond the rim
Let's just give ourselves the benefit of the doubt and call it a mystery. We can argue about till the end of time and JMS still will not tell. Let's just take the story for what it is.
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The rim, and the "veil" beyond which the bulk of the First Ones passed, is the Galactic rim.
jms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So, it's a simple Long Journey into the space outside our friendly little Milky Way galaxy.
We don't know What they are doing out there, but that doesn't matter.
It'll be a million years or more before we Care.
No "other planes of existence" crap.
JMS prefers to keep things simple.
With the Temporary exception of Sheridan, when someone Dies, they stay Dead.
The only surprises to look for are people we haven't actually SEEN die.
Or been Told by JMS that "He's Dead. Get over it."
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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
jms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So, it's a simple Long Journey into the space outside our friendly little Milky Way galaxy.
We don't know What they are doing out there, but that doesn't matter.
It'll be a million years or more before we Care.
No "other planes of existence" crap.
JMS prefers to keep things simple.
With the Temporary exception of Sheridan, when someone Dies, they stay Dead.
The only surprises to look for are people we haven't actually SEEN die.
Or been Told by JMS that "He's Dead. Get over it."
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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
RW7427
Super Moderator
I don't think that Sheridan or Valen would ever return from beyond the rim, but I think that Delenn will join them there some day. Could you imagine how cool it would be to have Valen, Sheridan, Delenn, and Lorien all together? Heck, you could even throw Kosh in the mix too. That would be cool.
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The Whitestar Salad Bar, the galaxy's best place for parties.
[This message has been edited by RW7427 (edited November 14, 2001).]
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The Whitestar Salad Bar, the galaxy's best place for parties.
[This message has been edited by RW7427 (edited November 14, 2001).]
AngelSummers
Beyond the rim
But Kosh is definitely dead. His last piece died in combat against Ulkesh Naranek. (the other Kosh) However I can't rule out Delenn metting the rest later.
One thing though. Sinclair did find Sakai later. So what does this mean for Sakai?
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
One thing though. Sinclair did find Sakai later. So what does this mean for Sakai?
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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.
May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.
No, beyond the rim is outside of our galaxy. JMS has said this quite plainly. Nice idea but beyond the moving beyond the rim is moving out of the galaxy to make room for the younger races.
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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
admiraldave
Regular
No. Lorien stated quite clearly, "This part of the journey is over." Sheridan will not return.
I got the impression that Lorien did not return so much as wait for Sheridan. It makes sense, given Lorien was sustaining him, he was ... incomplete and couldn't fully go beyond the rim until Sheridan got there. After all, a twenty year wait is next to nothing for someone like Lorien.
The question is who else made it beyond the rim?
Admiral Dave
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I got the impression that Lorien did not return so much as wait for Sheridan. It makes sense, given Lorien was sustaining him, he was ... incomplete and couldn't fully go beyond the rim until Sheridan got there. After all, a twenty year wait is next to nothing for someone like Lorien.
The question is who else made it beyond the rim?
Admiral Dave
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