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Possible original arc

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
<font color=yellow>Becuase that's not what happened in history, and he didn't want go screwing around with history.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote> In spite of everything he could do, Valen could not end the conflict. You cannot defeat the Shadows when they don't think you have defeated them. If they disagree with you, they will slip away, hide for a millennium and come back. They have always done that.

Even if Valen could have, in some miraculous way, totally defeated the Shadows, doing that would have destroyed his own reason for coming to the past, and hence he would not have been there to end the conflict... and the Shadows would have won by a landslide.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_M_Swallow:
<font color=yellow>This shows up the odd thing about the Great Machine - it is nothing to do with the Vorlons. They do not even take get Lyta to pass messages to Draal. There is another mastermind who could be planning the activities - Lorien.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That's something else that's bothered me. Now that B4 has gone back in time, what else is there for the Great Machine to do? It's too powerful to forget about, but also too powerful to drag into just any story. It's like a standing army w/ no threat to oppose. Since Draal has made contact w/ Lochley, he could do so again, and he's capable of overlooking the whole known galaxy, so why didn't Sheridan, for example , ask his help in looking for a cure to the Drakh plague, and ask him to provide help to the Rangers? He could be a priceless intel asset to the ISA, even if he limited what he passed on based on his own judgement. He could likely have told Sheridan exactly where to find the Drakh during A Call to Arms, and could easily warn about future threats of the kind. Now that I think about it, he could have been a big help during Thirdspace, too. But he pretty much dropped of the screen. This is a big loose end to leave untied. Now, had Draal explained that sending B4 back drained the Machine's power, and it was hibernating for a century or two, this would be explained, but I don't recall anything of the sort.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>Why couldn't he have ended the conflict 1000 years earliers? He knew everything including how the shadows and vorlons operated and how to end it.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
No, he didn't know how to end the Vorlon/Shadow stewardship. That happened after he went back. He did the best he could with the knowledge he had, but he did not know about Lorien, and he couldn't have confronted both First Ones and sent them packing. Besides, it would have killed good stories for the "present" time. Although I'd love to see a tv movie about Valen's efforts upon going back....
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Why couldn't he have ended the conflict 1000 years earliers? He knew everything including how the shadows and vorlons operated and how to end it.<hr></blockquote>

If we're assuming he goes back in time at the end of S5, then he would know how to end the war (or rather how it did end) when he went back in time. But he wouldn't have been able to implement that solution. Sheridan didn't end the war simply by talking to the Shadows and Vorlons. He hit them at the right psychological moment. They had broken their own rules, Z'ha'dum had been directly attacked by a member of the Younger Races (in a way that Sinclair/Valen could not have duplicated in 1260 CE), Kosh had been murdered and - for the first time - both sides took the gloves off, exterminating "allies" of their enemies and finally coming directly to blows.

The necessary conditions for the solution that Sheridan implemented in 2261 simply didn't exist in 1260. Sinclair couldn't have ended the war, even if the time-loop implications didn't make that impossible.

Re: The GM. Another reason for believing that 2278 was the original end-date for the series, and that Sinclair would have made his time-trip then. (Another is Londo's prediction - given in the very first episode - that he would die in 2278.) The GM really is useless and unused after B4 is sent back in time, but it sits there, a slightly embarassing object, for two more seasons. Its whole reason for being was to control the (natural) time rift in sector 14 to send B4 back in time.

This would have been an interesting ending, as it makes the whole story circular. After 5 years Sinclair would return "to the beginning" and start the whole process all over again.

Regards,

Joe
 
Darkwing, remember the strain that was put on not only Draal but the machine itself during WWE. It may very well be that as far as time travel was concerned the great machine was designed as a kind of derringer, good for one shot only. This is especially true if you believe as I do that the Vorlons built it since they are not accustomed to endowing the younger races with technology that is too advanced if there is no need to do so. Just because it can still be used to extend consciousness and store knowledge does not mean it is still in top shape.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Teekas Dragon:
<font color=yellow>No offense Mr.Bester but you talk alot about knowing what jms said and planned, but i want to see quotes from jms. That's the only way you can make your arguement valid as fact, until then its just your opinion

Sinc
Jerome</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

No offense, but your opinion is about as valid as mine. JMS has never revealed to us on when he decided to send Sinclair to the past. So unless you can dig up a quote from JMS that says Sinclair was going to be Valen in season 5 then please don't consider it fact.
 
Sheridan used the telepaths to disable the Shadow ships. 1000 years before, the telepaths had not been created. One of the things Sinclair triggered was the rushing of the telepaths into production. Consequently, the telepathic genes worked but the telekinetic genes contained bugs.
 
<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
Re: The GM. Another reason for believing that 2278 was the original end-date for the series, and that Sinclair would have made his time-trip then. (Another is Londo's prediction - given in the very first episode - that he would die in 2278.) The GM really is useless and unused after B4 is sent back in time, but it sits there, a slightly embarassing object, for two more seasons. Its whole reason for being was to control the (natural) time rift in sector 14 to send B4 back in time.
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

And in the Sinclair-becomes-Valen-in-season 5 plan it would also sit there useless for two or so season. If you haven't noticed Babylon 5 has a host of unused and cut off plot threads including General Hague's resistance, Brother Theo and Bureau 13.

<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
This would have been an interesting ending, as it makes the whole story circular. After 5 years Sinclair would return "to the beginning" and start the whole process all over again.

Regards,

Joe</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Sinclair travelling to the past to bring B4 and himself to help fight the minbari is a good ending? The finale would focus on B4 and the past. Why call it Babylon 5 when you shift focus to its previous station in the finale?
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_M_Swallow:
<font color=yellow>Sheridan used the telepaths to disable the Shadow ships. 1000 years before, the telepaths had not been created. One of the things Sinclair triggered was the rushing of the telepaths into production. Consequently, the telepathic genes worked but the telekinetic genes contained bugs.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

G'quon and his fellow mindwalkers already existed. How else do you think the Narn drove off the shadows?
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>G'quon and his fellow mindwalkers already existed. How else do you think the Narn drove off the shadows?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

The mindwalkers existed until just before the end of the previous Shadow War. We do not know when they were created. Since the War went on for 30 years there was plenty of time to create them after Valen appeared.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>s2:sinclair learns of his minbari soul thing
s3:he becomes aged on B4, uses the chrysalis to become a Minbari and lead them in the previous great war.
s4:he returns as Valen and becomes a messianic figure and kicks the first ones out
s5:he goes beyond the rim.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I may be misinterpreting the details of what you intend, but that looks like you have a period of about a year (or close to it) where the show is following Valen in the previous Shadow War.

If that is the case then I would just point out that this is not a very practical scenario from the real-world production POV.

First of all you have the problems of assembling the cast of B5, letting them go for a year, and then getting the group reassembled for the last year and half or so of the series. The only way to really do that would be to be to keep them under paid contract during that period (much as secondary characters were in fact paid for a certain minimum number of eps per season, even if they didn't actually appear in that many), which would trash the show's budget.

Second, since that period would contain no Human characters the makeup budgets would have to increase noticably. The non-speaking alien extras walking around the station in many scenes can be done done relatively quickly and cheaply. However, the work for all of the major speaking parts is much more intricate than that.

Third: This also involves the complete lack of Humans on the show in that period. How do you sell that idea to the suits? There are real marketing reasons why there has never been a live action TV series without any Human characters.
 
Valid points, PillowRock.

That the show was named Babylon 5 implies focusing on B5. Valen and B4 were always going to be a side story, no matter how the character of Sinclair would have developed. No matter if the Great Machine and B4 would have been revealed in the middle or end. The main focus would have always remained on the events of 2258-2263.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_M_Swallow:
<font color=yellow>Sheridan used the telepaths to disable the Shadow ships. 1000 years before, the telepaths had not been created. One of the things Sinclair triggered was the rushing of the telepaths into production. Consequently, the telepathic genes worked but the telekinetic genes contained bugs.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>I'm not quite following you on this conclusion that you come to. Where do you get that telekinetic genes had bugs? /ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif
 
It has been hinted by none other than JMS, in one of his short stories (of which I have read a synopsis) that the Vorlons started creating telepaths much earlier.

Before the civilisations in question became advanced enough to understand they were being manipulated. For the Minbari that would have been many thousands of years ago. For the Narn it was about a thousand years ago. Humanity was simply discovered late, and the Vorlons acted rashly. The first person who surely knew Earth's location was Valen, and he would tell nobody.

About the Centauri, no data exists. It has been mentioned that the Vorlons favoured the Xon, whom the Centauri conquered in a bloody struggle. This might suggest that the Centauri got their telepathic abilities independently. Perhaps from mixing with the Xon? From other sources?

I would however suspect that the Shadows would not spread telepathy. It was against their principles. They gave technology. They were also among the earliest to learn of Earth, which was probably the reason for leaving battlecrabs in the Solar system. To be found when Humans reach space travel.
 
I got the distinct impression that telepathy was not necessarily due to tinkering - it was never said either way which races (other than human's) got edited by the vorlon's, and I'm sure JMS said straight out that the centauri hadn't been. Also, the fact that it seems to be introduced by genetic tampering suggests strongly that random eveolution could achive it - so any race might have it's own telepaths, whether the vorlons got to them or not.
I personally think minbari are naturally telepathic (unless someone can find evidence against) since a: its suggested their teeps are somewhat more powerful. and b: Delen, whilst not considered a teep, showed some teep skills - Morden going black, sensing the keeper.
Valen could well have had teeps to hand in the last shadow war, but that just aids him in defeating the shadows, not winning the war. If that makes sense?
 
Agreeing with the above, I also am not positive the Vorlons created telepathy in general. They might have evolved it themselves or created it themselves, but some races out there might have also evolved it independently. Sure, they did breed Telepaths on "hundreds of worlds" but does not mean they didn't get the genes from existing telepathic races or that some formed without outside intervention. I've always thought the Narn telepaths were much more powerful than others - since the Narn telepaths managed to drive off their world a heavy force of the First Ones - and without much technology to back them up. I thin it's been said that the Narns were pretty much agrerian(sp?) at the time and had not even come into the industrial revolution age. It took nuclear bombs to get the Shadows off Centauri Prime but a group of mindwalkers did it on Narn with much less tech .. I'd say pretty powerful; even Lyta could only stun one Shadow ship at a time with great strain in Season 3.

Also there has been hints that the Drakh might be telepathic ... if not telepathic than it's done by advanced technology to keep a "mental connection" with others. Also we've seen at least one instance where a Drakh soldier expertly performed what looked like telekinesis - again that could have been advanced tech. From what I understand, telephathy only blocked the organic mind/body from the Shadow tech - like blocking the organic host from controlling the Shadow ship. Was it stated to be dangerous to the Shadows themselves ... though it seems the Shadows were very much slaves to their own tech anyway ... The Shadows were able to take over Lyta's mind in "Into the Fire" just like the Vorlons did ...

I was going somewhere with all this but I got side tracked by own ramblings I think ... maybe later ... /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by PillowRock:
<font color=yellow>I may be misinterpreting the details of what you intend, but that looks like you have a period of about a year (or close to it) where the show is following Valen in the previous Shadow War.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

You got it wrong. Sinclair would disappear and our heroes would try to continue on without him and that would last for four or six episodes then Sinclair or Valen would return to Babylon 5 with the same religious awe as Sheridan returning from Z'Ha'Dum and with the knowlege and experience from the previous war on why the shadows and vorlons are fighting.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>You got it wrong. Sinclair would disappear and our heroes would try to continue on without him and that would last for four or six episodes then Sinclair or Valen would return to Babylon 5 with the same religious awe as Sheridan returning from Z'Ha'Dum and with the knowlege and experience from the previous war on why the shadows and vorlons are fighting.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Does the phrase "Grasping at Straws" mean anything to you? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
 
Regarding the Centauri and their telepathy weren't they also shaped by the vorlons. I recall that Londo himself saw something when Kosh came out.
 
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