Possible original arc

[Mr. Bester]

Here is another possibility for what was going to happen to Sinclair.

s2:sinclair learns of his minbari soul thing
s3:he becomes aged on B4, uses the chrysalis to become a Minbari and lead them in the previous great war.
s4:he returns as Valen and becomes a messianic figure and kicks the first ones out
s5:he goes beyond the rim

This would fit in with all the pieces that we saw in s1 and it would make more sense. If we go by the idea that he goes back in s5 then why does he help the vorlons? He would have know that they were the same as the shadows.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I always figured the events in WWE were originally intended to happen in the final episode. Sinclair looks roughly 20 years older when we see him at the end of "Babylon Squared", which puts it around "Sleeping In Light"'s timeframe. Sinclair's accellerated aging in WWE always seemed sorta contrived to me. Clearly not what JMS originally had in mind when he wrote Babylon Squared.

 

[Nukemall]

How would Valen travel the 1000 years forward in time? In 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows,' Ulkesh suggests that the time rift in Sector 14 is unique.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nukemall:
<font color=yellow>How would Valen travel the 1000 years forward in time? In 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows,' Ulkesh suggests that the time rift in Sector 14 is unique.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Nukemall what point are you replying to? No one else has mentioned moving Valen moving forward 1000 years.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think he was replying to Bester, who suggested that Valen would go back 1000 years with Babylon 4 during season 3, and then return in season 4.

 

[Recoil]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
<font color=yellow>Here is another possibility for what was going to happen to Sinclair.

s2:sinclair learns of his minbari soul thing
s3:he becomes aged on B4, uses the chrysalis to become a Minbari and lead them in the previous great war.
s4:he returns as Valen and becomes a messianic figure and kicks the first ones out
s5:he goes beyond the rim

This would fit in with all the pieces that we saw in s1 and it would make more sense. If we go by the idea that he goes back in s5 then why does he help the vorlons? He would have know that they were the same as the shadows.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
It has been discussed more than a few times here that the original arc probably looked a bit different than that. Namely, Sinclair was probably going to go back and be Valen in the SERIES finale (or right before) which was to take place 20 years later. This would explain his older age in B-squared. For the most part things were going to go like they did with Sheridan, except with Sinclair instead. One difference, and the driving factor in brining in Sheridan, is it was a hell of a lot for one character to actually do. For example, Sinclair would have to be secretly running and training the rangers, and leading the war against the shadows, as well as being on B5 and breaking away from Earth. It made much more sense to happen as it did.

 

[Mr. Bester]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Recoil:
<font color=yellow>It has been discussed more than a few times here that the original arc probably looked a bit different than that. Namely, Sinclair was probably going to go back and be Valen in the SERIES finale (or right before) which was to take place 20 years later. .</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

But JMS himself said that Sinclair would go back in season 3. And he also said that SiL was planned from the very beginning and WWE is nothing like Sleeping in Light. IMO WWE is kinda like Odysseus going off to fight in a foreign land while SiL is like him finally sailing off to the far frontier. And besides if Sinclair becomes Valen in s5 why would he fight for the vorlons? But if he goes back in s3 when he didn't know the whole puzzle then he would have fought for them.

<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>This would explain his older age in B-squared. .</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Remember Chekov's rule for writing that JMS adhered to? If so every wonder why the pilot in B-Squared got aged?

<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>For the most part things were going to go like they did with Sheridan, except with Sinclair instead. .</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

What about Lorien? It was pretty obvious he was a late addition in JMS's plan.

<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>One difference, and the driving factor in brining in Sheridan, is it was a hell of a lot for one character to actually do. For example, Sinclair would have to be secretly running and training the rangers, and leading the war against the shadows, as well as being on B5 and breaking away from Earth. It made much more sense to happen as it did.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

In the original arc the anla'shok training I suspect was going to be put under Delenn's arc while the breaking away from Earth was going to be put under General Hague/Sheridan arc and Sinclair was going to caught in the middle.

 

[A_Ranger]

Bester, your logic makes no sense. If Sinclair became Valen in season 3, how could he be around for season 4 and season 5? Once he goes back, he's gone.

 

[Bester]

....also it would make less sense for a Minbari (Valen) to lead the Earth revolution as seen in S4. Sheridan states in S4 that if a Minbari were to lead the rebels during the war, "people back home would think that the Minbari War is happening all over again. It has to be one of us." That says it all, really. Sinclair would HAVE to have been a human during this time.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>But JMS himself said that Sinclair would go back in season 3. And he also said that SiL was planned from the very beginning<hr></blockquote>

He didn't say either of these things. If you think he did, go to JMSNews and try to find the quotes. What he said about "SiL" is that he had planned the very last shot of the series (which turned out not to be the last shot) and described it to some of the production staff before they started on TV movie #1. He later identified the shot as the destruction of B5 at the decommissioning ceremony. He never said that "SiL" was planned in detail from the beginning. As for "WWE" (as it exists) not resembling "SiL" - of course it doesn't. If the original plan was to have Sinclair as the lead for all five years (later modified to add a "Sheridan-like" character to help him - which JMS did say was part of his plan) then "WWE" as it is would never have been filmed. It isn't "WWE" that would have been the series finale, but rather the event of Sinclair's journey into the past, and the revelation that he was Valen all along. The actual events of the episode would have been very different.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Remember Chekov's rule for writing that JMS adhered to? If so every wonder why the pilot in B-Squared got aged?<hr></blockquote>

Remember JMS's fondness for red-herrings and misdirection? What better way to keep people from guessing that Sinclair really was 20 years older, and that the series climax would come in 2278, than throwing in that pilot?

What about Lorien? It was pretty obvious he was a late addition in JMS's plan.

Well, there goes your theory that "SiL" was planned from the very beginning. Absent Lorien "SiL" doesn't happen - there's no 20 year time limit, no First One to bring Sheridan/Sinclair Beyond the Rim. If Lorien is "obviously" a late addition to JMS's plans, then so is Sheridan and so is Lorien.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Recoil]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
<font color=yellow>It isn't "WWE" that would have been the series finale, but rather the event of Sinclair's journey into the past, and the revelation that he was Valen all along. The actual events of the episode would have been very different.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
Yea thats what I meant, I just didnt word it so well. I had heard that the finale was supposed to be Sinclair going back to become Valen. So yea, the Finale would have been VERY different than SiL was, but then the story turned out different in many ways as well. I probably shouldnt have said WWE being the finale, I should have just said Sinclair's return to the past.

As to Mr. Bester's point about Lorien, who is to say he wasn't part of the original plan? Sheridan went to Z'Ha'Dum with his believed dead wife Anna, found out the truth to the war, and took his leap. If you recall, at the end of Season 1, Sinclair and Cathrine Saki were to be married soon. She was a explorer type pilot whose exploits took her near the rim (like Anna did). In the original arc it is very likely that she and Sinlair were married in S2, and she probably disappeared while getting too close to where the Shadows were. Believed lost or dead, she would come back and lead Sinclair to Z'Ha'Dum much like Anna did with Sheridan. It would have worked just fine with Sinclair, it was other pieces that made things difficult to pull off all at once.

 

[RW7427]

Hmmm......Quite an interesting discussion. I don't want to think too hard about coming up with a contribution of my own because that would be "one of those Londo bleeding from the ears things". /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

But it is an intriguing discussion....

 

[Bester]

For what it's worth, Mr Bester, I think it's a fair enough theory. There's just not enough to support it.

By the way, are we related? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

 

[Mr. Bester]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Nukemall:
<font color=yellow>How would Valen travel the 1000 years forward in time? In 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows,' Ulkesh suggests that the time rift in Sector 14 is unique.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Remember Jack the Ripper? I'm guessing the same method the Vorlons used on Jack they used on Sinclair.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'm guessing he never let them use it. Knowing the future allows you to twist even a Vorlon around your finger, and say it was all destiny.

 

[Loadhan]

I'm not sure the Vorlons are the type to always - if ever - give much choice. I'm not sure if they gave Sebastian a choice - and even if they did it could have been a choice that was no choice at all. Not to mention I've seen nothing that Sinclair didn't grow to trust the Vorlons - at least mostly. He left before the Vorlons showed their true fa .... er, whatever they have. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

This reminds me of a debate had at a Panel at Marcon a few years back ... someone suggested the possibility that Valen used the third Triluminary to turn into a Vorlon ...

 

[TheTriad]

I've always thought that Sebastian wasn't brought to the future: he simply lived a really long time. I might have missed something, though.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Remember that Entil'zha is supposed to be a Vorlon word, first applied to Valen. That should make is quite obvious who handled the "creating the future" part... and who was simply puzzled by having a fake Minbari tell them what should be done.

 

[A_Ranger]

How is it obvious that Lorien is a late edition?

He's the only reason the Shadows were still on Z'ha'dum.

 

[Recoil]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
<font color=yellow>He's the only reason the Shadows were still on Z'ha'dum.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That is because thats what the story told you. If he never was planned, they could have just always lived there or something. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

I think he or someone like him was part of the plan from the start at some level though...