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Origin of Minbari beliefs
- Thread starter Lurker_Steve
- Start date
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
And would Sinclair be influenced to become a Jesuit because he was really Valen?
Obviously this is a gag, but let's remember that Sinclair never said he was a Jesuit. He said he spent time with them and that he was educated by them. According to what JMS has said about his background, Sinclair was raised by a Jesuit priest and his wife, family friends, after his farther died. (His mother had apparently died eariler.) He probably went to at least one Jesuit boarding school before he entered the Academy and joined Earthforce, but he never joined the order and the Vorlons had nothing to do with the circumstances of his training.
Regards,
Joe
RW7427
Super Moderator
Yes, it was a gag. I knew he just went to a Jesuit school. He didn't become a priest or anything before joining Earthforce.
But what I was actually getting at was could the fact that he possessed the soul of a great Minbari religious figure influence the kind of faith he practiced?
I knew he just went to a Jesuit school. He didn't become a priest or anything before joining Earthforce. But what I was actually getting at was could the fact that he possessed the soul of a great Minbari religious figure influence the kind of faith he practiced?
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Not if the idea of him having the soul of Valen was strictly the minbari mistakenly interpreting what was truly a DNA thing in that the triluminary, having been programmed with his DNA from changing him from human to minbari, glowed with recognition of his DNA when the minbari scanned him with it.
Even if one must look at it under the belief that there are souls involved and that the triluminary wasn't just a complex genetics device, Sinclair still didn't have the soul of Valen. Sinclair was Valen; they're two names of the same person. It'd still be his singluar soul, not someone else's soul in his body.
Telepath
Member
I've dug out this thread because the Minbari belief in one of their own being reborn as humans just started to puzzle me. If the triluminary detects human DNA / specifically Sinclair's DNA, that is the answer to why the Minbari believed Sinclair to be Valen and ended the war. But if the Triluminary detects human DNA, every single human scanned would have a positive result concerning a Minbari soul - wouldn't that cause even religious caste members to doubt their beliefs? Or am I getting something wrong here?
P.S. It gets extremely confusing if I look at it from a 1st season standpoint, when the transition of souls still began 2000 years ago... and Valen had no children, as JMS once stated.
P.S. It gets extremely confusing if I look at it from a 1st season standpoint, when the transition of souls still began 2000 years ago... and Valen had no children, as JMS once stated.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Telepath said:
Lennier even specifically tells us that after they scanned Sinclair, they brought in other human pilots and scanned them too to much the same result. As for anything different between the scan on Sinclair and others, I've always figured the triluminary just glowed brighter for Sinclair than the other humans.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
No, because - as you youself point out - the Minbari have believed they have been "losing" souls for between 2,000 and 1,000 years, and their "greater" souls in more recent times. Discovering Minbair souls in Humans doesn't challenge their beliefs, it solves the mystery of where all those souls have been going. ("They were being reborn, in whole or in part, in Human bodies." Minbari believe that souls can subdivide.)
Naturally at this point nobody had any idea that DNA was involved. Also the religious caste concluded that Sinclair had a Minbari soul, even a Great Minbari soul, but only a few believed or even seriously considered that it could be [i[Valen's[/i] sould in particular. So the main reason for stopping the war was the discovery of Humans with Minbari souls, that's why the tests on the subsequent captives was so important. Sinclair's status, and the controversy surrounding it, were kept secret by the Council and a few senior members of the Religious caste. The on-going doubts led to Delenn's mission of observation, the Minbari insistance that Sinclair command B5, the doubts about Delenn's interpretation of prophecy and her orders to kill Sinclair if he began to remember what had happened. (Presumably he'd be reincarnated again, maybe this time in a properly Minbari form, and be available to fulfill prophecy in another 30 years or so.
) As for the 2,000 year figure - either that's when the Minbari population began to decline but before their great souls seemed to go missing or it is just one of those few cases where JMS screwed up. In which case in the context of the story the character screwed up in telling a story or relaying a fact.
Regards,
Joe
GaribaldisHair
Regular
It is actually a very neat little circle ...
The Minbari snatch Sinclair in order to question him about Earth's defences
They scan him and discover that he "has a great Minbari soul"
They stop the war, wipe his mind and let him go
They decide they need to keep a close eye on him, so when they get involved in helping Earth to build B5 insist that he is made commanding officer
That then puts him in the right position to become ambassador
That then puts him in the right position to become Ranger 1
That then puts him in the right place to steal B4 and go back in time to become Valen
...
And so the circle begins again.
I have to confess, when I first saw And The Sky Full Of Stars my first reaction was that it was something of a useful coincidence that the commander of B5 just happened to be the one that the Minbari took for questioning and that prompted the Minbari surrender. Further unfolding of the story, however, soon put that particular misconception to bed.
The Minbari snatch Sinclair in order to question him about Earth's defences
They scan him and discover that he "has a great Minbari soul"
They stop the war, wipe his mind and let him go
They decide they need to keep a close eye on him, so when they get involved in helping Earth to build B5 insist that he is made commanding officer
That then puts him in the right position to become ambassador
That then puts him in the right position to become Ranger 1
That then puts him in the right place to steal B4 and go back in time to become Valen
...
And so the circle begins again.
I have to confess, when I first saw And The Sky Full Of Stars my first reaction was that it was something of a useful coincidence that the commander of B5 just happened to be the one that the Minbari took for questioning and that prompted the Minbari surrender. Further unfolding of the story, however, soon put that particular misconception to bed.
Telepath
Member
Still, I think that the circle would have been even more beautiful with Sinclair learning in his human life, as commander of B5 during the shadow/vorlon war, the things to prepare him for his life as the great leader Valen. As the story stands now, Sinclair achieves most of his greatness as Valen, not before.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
I'm pretty sure this is one of the statements that JMS admitted was an exception to his "don't lie to the fans" rule. He said that in rare instances he'd get a direct question that he couldn't easily duck (no pun intended) but that would give away a plot point if answered directly, so he'd lie to preserve the surprise. In any event, that was only a comment on the web, and what is on the show always trumps that. And it was never said in the show that Valen was childless.
Regards,
Joe
Telepath
Member
Concerning the 'Circle of Valen', I'm really looking forward to seeing (okay, which of the two progressive tenses is false?...) the original 5-year plan with Sinclair in place.
Concerning the fact with Valen's children, I think it made sense for JMS to 'lie' about it, or some viewers might have guessed the truth. I think we can forgive him for protecting us from possible spoilers. Very vorlon indeed
Concerning the fact with Valen's children, I think it made sense for JMS to 'lie' about it, or some viewers might have guessed the truth. I think we can forgive him for protecting us from possible spoilers. Very vorlon indeed
Galahad
Regular
Concerning the 'Circle of Valen', I'm really looking forward to seeing (okay, which of the two progressive tenses is false?...) the original 5-year plan with Sinclair in place.
Concerning the fact with Valen's children, I think it made sense for JMS to 'lie' about it, or some viewers might have guessed the truth. I think we can forgive him for protecting us from possible spoilers. Very vorlon indeed
Well we know without a doubt from Season 4 that Valen had children (Delenn is his descendant).
I know a lot of people really disagree with me on this, but I believe that who he had children with is the cause of the reason his children had to go into hiding. Although Sinclair went back primarily to complete the circle and become Valen. It's pretty clear that he had hopes of being reunited with Catherine Sakai. He asks Kosh directly if there is a chance he will be reunited with her if he does go back... and Kosh suggests "perhaps". We also know that Marcus received a letter from "both of us" thanking him for his friendship (although that is a little veiled as the book says it could have been a 1,000 years or merely a few months old). Finally he left a message on Babylon 4 that said that "I've found her."
We know that the Minbari have an "issue" about species purity. Delenn is initially rejected by her own people (particularly the warrior caste). In "atonement" they didn't seem to want Delenn having kids with Sheridan. It was said in WWE2 that the Minbari wouldn't have accepted B4 so readily from an alien species.
I don't think Sinclair would so easily have given up on his love of Catherine. I believe she is possibly the mother of Valen's children... and the outrage this caused forced his children and their families to flee Minbar with sympathisers who were willing to shelter them.
If this is the case, perhaps the persecution didn't break out in Valen's lifetime because of his "moral authority". However when he disappeared, perhaps the protection offerred by his name and position also disappeared under the rule of an authoritarian leader... resulting in the departure of Valen's children and their spouses and children and some Minbari willing to offer protection.
Babylon 4 seemed to have been lost to the Minbari, so maybe they lived there secretly for a while.
In later generations when the more obvious genetic differences that may have arisen from a Valen/Sakai partnership had become more latent, the descendents of Valen may have started to reintegrate into society.
hypatia
Regular
Wasn't something mentioned somewhere, though, that Dr. Franklin didn't know at first if Delenn and Sherridan could have children, and they were both mostly human. If Sakai was converted to a Minbari like Sinclair was, then she wouldn't be of another race to them, would she?
Or perhaps it angered them that someone "inferior" to them has suddenly been turned into one of them. I can see how that might raise some eyebrows.
But how else could they have had kids?
Or perhaps it angered them that someone "inferior" to them has suddenly been turned into one of them. I can see how that might raise some eyebrows.
But how else could they have had kids?
Lurker_Steve
Member
Do we have any indication that Catherine Sakai underwent the Chrysalis process as well?
Sindatur
Regular
Well Delenn still looked partly Minbari, and partly human after her transformation. Valen looked entirely Minbari, not sure if Catherine could've produced offspring with him had she not undergone some kind of transformation.
Telepath
Member
An interesting quote from "In Valen's Name" I dug out at the Lurker's Guide:
(look here: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/comic/014.html)
That implies that Sinclair did not have children with Catherine, and that he has found someone else...
I could live with that, since the fate of Catherine Sakai has often bugged me. I simply could not imagine her in Ranger training. As JMS once said, she would not be nailed down on Minbar (or something like it). I think her fate in "City of Sorrows" was rather out of character.
(look here: http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/comic/014.html)
That implies that Sinclair did not have children with Catherine, and that he has found someone else...
I could live with that, since the fate of Catherine Sakai has often bugged me. I simply could not imagine her in Ranger training. As JMS once said, she would not be nailed down on Minbar (or something like it). I think her fate in "City of Sorrows" was rather out of character.
Sindatur
Regular
How does that imply "I found her" isn't referring to Catherine? Catherine definitely seems to have gone back in time to somewhere.
Galahad
Regular
Wasn't something mentioned somewhere, though, that Dr. Franklin didn't know at first if Delenn and Sherridan could have children, and they were both mostly human. If Sakai was converted to a Minbari like Sinclair was, then she wouldn't be of another race to them, would she?
Or perhaps it angered them that someone "inferior" to them has suddenly been turned into one of them. I can see how that might raise some eyebrows.
But how else could they have had kids?
I suppose the key to understanding this is working out the basis of Franklin's comments.
We don't know for a fact that humans and minbari can't ordinarily interbreed.
Up until this point, to our knowledge there have been no human-minbari unions to speak of, so Franklin could just be treating the whole thing as a great unknown quantity. You could argue that he is operating from his knowledge of minbari and human anatomy... but in truth, nobody has knowledge of how the reproductive organs of both species interact - because as far as Franklin is aware there has been no cultural or biological precedent for what he is witnessing.
Now if it were the Centauri... that WOULD be in an interesting dilemma to ponder... but not in this forum.
