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Origin of Minbari beliefs

L

Lurker_Steve

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It has been stated in several episodes that the Minbari believe that the universe is aware, and that somehow it broke its consciousness apart into sentient beings so that it could understand itself (or something like that--I don't recall the precise wording). Is it a coincidence that the Vorlons are capable of this same feat? We have seen them break a piece of their consciousness off and place them in others (like Sheridan or Lyta, for example). Is this strong evidence that the Vorlons influenced Minbari beliefs to fit their nature? Or did the Minbari develop this belief on their own? Or maybe it's just a clever notion that JMS used several times on B5 and we as the audience aren't suppose to link them together?

I'm interested in hearing what others think about this.
 
Ya know, I never made that connection before, but it is an interesting one. Perhaps as a race evolves, it becomes less material and more ethereal? Just as the human race (in a million years) essentially become the "new vorlons" and are able to go from the physical form to an energy form - and thus utilizing an encounter suit as Vorlons did.

I'm not sure how the Minbari evolve, though. It's mentioned by JMS that the Minbari and the Humans eventually make it beyond the rim, but that the Narn and the Centauri do not.

I think JMS touches frequently on the whole "star stuff" idea. It definitely carries over into many aspects of B5: from Delenn telling Sheridan that we are the universe trying to understand itself to Kosh breaking off pieces of his energy to ride around inside of other beings (i.e. Lyta.)

I always wondered what Vorlons felt and experienced when parts of their consciousness were broken off and put into something/someone else. Did Kosh then experience Lyta's feelings? Emotions? I imagine it would be quite a "ride" if that was the case--perhaps giving the Vorlons a chance to experience life through the eyes of a younger race. :)
 
I think what you're saying is at least partially a literary technique JMS uses, wherein a theme is represented differently throughout the series in slightly different ways. It creates a unified, symmetrical feel to the show.
 
I too never put the two together, but, think you have a good point. However, I never saw Kosh andLyta's relationship as "leaving" a part of himself broken off. Didn't Lyta carry around the whole of Kosh when she carried him, and she wasn't carrying him, she was receptive to him, but, I don't think she had a "piece of Kosh", like Sheridan did when Kosh died, and once again, that was the whole of what was left of Kosh.

It very well could be that JMS used the Vorlon instances of this as a tool to reinforce the statement.
 
I dunno, I seem to recall Lorien saying "they can break off pieces of their consciousness. They do this in order to explore and check out what's going on."

Who knows... they're vorlons after all! :)
 
I think you're misquoting and attaching the similarity based on that mistake. Delenn never states that the Universe broke any parts off, she simply states (he paraphrases to the best of his memory) "We are the Universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out". By manifest, Delenn refers to "creation", not destruction (or breaking or separating). What she implies is that all the races were created BY the Universe to one day uncover the mysteries OF the Universe, and that we are part of that larger "organism", much as a blood cell lives within the body, performing the functions that keep us alive.

Delenn also gives a true, physical connection to the Universe when she borrows the late Carl Sagan's statement that (paraphrasing again) "The same matter that formed the stars billions of years ago, also formed each one of us.

We are "Star Stuff".

The two concepts are heavily related; one deals with consciousness, one with physical matter, but both emphasize that are, at the most elemental levels imaginable, one with the Universe.
 
There have been some interesting points made here, although I still believe there is a striking similarity between Minbari beliefs and Vorlon capabilities. I think perhaps I should try to locate the Delenn quote (and perhaps the Lorien one too) on my DVDs to see if this can't be cleared up by an examination of the stated beliefs. Once I find them, I'll be sure to post them here.

If anyone knows which specific episodes I should look at, it might speed up the process.

Thanks!
 
"We believe that the Universe itself is conscious in a way we can never truly understand. It is engaged in a search for meaning, so it breaks itself apart, investing its own consciousness in every form of life. We are the universe, trying to understand itself."

Delenn, explaining Minbari beliefs in "Passing Through Gethsemane"

"We are the universe--the universe made manifest. It broke itself into pieces to examine every aspect of its being."

Jeremiah, expounding on Minbari beliefs from "Grey 17 is Missing"

"They can break off pieces of their consciousness and put it into other organisms. It allows them to travel hidden through the galaxy, using others as their eyes and ears."

Lorien, revealing the capabilities of the Vorlons in "Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?"
 
There are several similarities to Jesus teachings in the words Valen issued when forming the Grey Council (from Parliament of Dreams). You could argue that Sinclair used elements of his own background knowledge and cultural heritage to illustrate the points he needed to make at the time... and that these int time became adopted not just as history, but as Minbari culture and heritage.

Valen definitely uses words similar to the most famous phrase from the great commission. "Iam with you always even to the end of time".
 
Exactly... but I get the impression that Sinclair's beliefs while maybe being based around his Jesuit upbringing... incorporated elements from other belief systems. You certainly get that impression from what he said to Franklin in Believers. He also demonstrated an incredibly broad world view in Parlaiment of Dreams.

So while i think he may have taken advantage of aspects of his own spirituality to get across certain ideas, I don't think he would have tried to purposely alter Minbari belief on the whole... he had too much respect.
 
I agree that Sinclair's Jesuit background would have influenced his words and deeds, but I would like to think that he didn't set out to make himself the religious icon that he would later become.

Of course, the angelic Vorlons fluttering at his side probably didn't hurt his public relations any...
 
If you read the book "To Dream in the City of Sorrows" you see a good clash of wills between Ukesh and Kosh over Sinclair. Ulkesh wants Sinclair to be Valen... the figure from prophecy.... no life.... just service. Kosh meanwhile encourages Sinclair not to forget who he is despite what he is called to do. This is a theme that is explored in the difference between Kosh and Ulkesh and their handling of Lyta.

I completely agree with you on that.
 
I agree that Sinclair's Jesuit background would have influenced his words and deeds, but I would like to think that he didn't set out to make himself the religious icon that he would later become.
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But at the same time, he had to do so in order to bring about the future he had come from. That was the paradox of his life. (It is also why speculating about Sinclair's Jesuit education and religious beliefs is largely besides the point. As an adult Human he studied Minbari culture and the teachings of Valen. When he went back in time he taught that which he himself had learned - because that's what had to be. So in that sense Minbari beliefs have no origin. ;))

There are time when Sinclair/Valen struggled with this (as when he debated doing something to prevent the E-M war before admitting that it was necessary to everything that would follow - see the comc book story, "In Valen's Name.") But in the end he always adhered to what he "had already done" so as to preserve the timeline.

Regards,

Joe
 
This is where the whole thing of Sinclair being the closed circle gets immensely confusing. It is the absolute prime example of the chicken and egg debate.
 
But at the same time, he had to do so in order to bring about the future he had come from. That was the paradox of his life. (It is also why speculating about Sinclair's Jesuit education and religious beliefs is largely besides the point. As an adult Human he studied Minbari culture and the teachings of Valen. When he went back in time he taught that which he himself had learned - because that's what had to be. So in that sense Minbari beliefs have no origin. ;))

Regards,

Joe
Click to expand...

I don't buy that for a minute. What if a 13 year old Jesus some how came forward in time, and read the gospel? Do you think he would think, 'Well, that's what they said I said, so I better say exactly that?' I don't. Sinclair's strong moral center, in part from his Jesuit upbringing, would determine how he presented his/Valen's philosophy. Since there is really no such thing as a complete and accurate history, if he had tried to follow what little they knew of Valen's time to the letter, he would doubtless have done some things that were remembered inaccurately, thus wrong, and changed what 'history' was supposed to be, for the desired outcome. I'm sure he was informed by what he knew of Valen's actions, and philosophy, but acted based also on what the 'past' reality he was experiencing seemed to call for.
 
Indeed. Sinclair might well have understood that since history was "already done," he couldn't change it anyway once he went back.

Moreover, note Neroon's comment: "You talk like a Minbari." Would it not be easy to say that Neroon had it exactly backwards, that Minbari talk like Sinclair, because of his influence on them as Valen?
 
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