News post: B5LR.com review of the telemovie!

drakh · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by channe:
Right, drakh. I never, ever said that you didn't have facts to back your statements up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Errr... you said I was wrong. Basic logic would dictate that if I was wrong, I couldn't have the facts on my side, now, could I? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I didn't think I was being patronizing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The "sorry darkh" at the end certainly felt that way, especially since you didn't appear to have even considered the numbers I'd already supplied, or have tried to come up with any hard info of your own. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Take it that way if you wish. And if so, I'm sorry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I am content in the knowledge that I got my point across scessufully. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Ok, I was wrong about Enterprise. Maybe I should have said "the specter of the giant cultural phenomenon that is Star Trek."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Which is quite a bit a difference. Not too many people realize this, though, which was exactly why I made my original post. Getting a simple "Sorry, you're wrong" in return, especially from someone believed to in possession of a functioning brain, is... frustrating...

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"Where? I don't see any guys; Just perverts!" (hear it)
-- Akane Tendo, "School is a Battlefield!", Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited December 18, 2001).]

Londonium · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the Utterly Pathetic Network <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I love it!

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Kribu · Dec 19, 2001

I think the conclusion that can be drawn from Channe and Drakh's posts is that even though Star Trek is not actually as hugely popular any longer, it's still the best known and still most widely watched (even if the margin is rather narrow) sci fi show around, right?

It may be crap - no offense meant for any Trek fans, I've never seen any of it and thus have no opinion about it - but it appears that it's still something most people first think about when they hear the term "sci fi".

As for science fiction's place as a laughable niche thing - ouch. I am glad we don't have such attitude here, sci fi seems to be perfectly acceptable and certainly not something to dismiss off hand. Of course there are people who don't care about it - but then there are plenty of people who don't care about soaps or hospital dramas.

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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

channe · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
Getting a simple "Sorry, you're wrong" in return, especially from someone believed to in possession of a functioning brain, is... frustrating...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's not take this conversation to that level, shall we? I never insulted you. I see that's where we might be going, so I'm going to respectfully bow out with a nod to Kribu, as she said what I guess I wasn't too clear about.

Kribu, the genre of science fiction is definitely *not* the maligned, misguided younger sister of drama many people make it out to be. But, as Dylan said above, Sarah Michelle Gellar will never get an Emmy nod, etc., etc.

There's a stigma around science fiction, the stigma created by fans and cons and the general atmosphere of the "other." We know that it's more than that.

The rest of the world, however, doesn't. And more's the pity.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

Kribu · Dec 19, 2001

Well, perhaps that's a part of the reason why science fiction is taken as one genre among the others over here - we don't really have a "fan" culture.

We don't have cons, people don't dress up etc, so that's perhaps why the "general public" has never had any reason to take people who happen to like science fiction as "geeks".

It is sad though that sci fi doesn't get quite the recognition that it - or at least the better and more intelligent part of it, not the "busty babes in space" part - deserves. I could think of quite a few actors in B5, for instance, who would definitely have deserved a few Emmys - but who probably weren't even considered because of the genre.

Science fiction at its best makes people think. I mean, what's so bad about that?

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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

AntonyF · Dec 19, 2001

Channe, Drakh... quit it now.

UPN's name. I heard that WB was calling it the "Use Parts Network" after it took Buffy, and saved Roswell. UPN was calling WB "Without Buffy."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SavantB5:
I don't know if I entirely agree with this sentiment. I know everyone has been told to pay attention only to the ratings, but my instinct tells me that a rave or positive review from the NY Times, Entertainment Weekly, Washington Post, or other major TV critic, would also influence a TV executive's decision.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dylan has already addressed this, and of course he knows. I would have echoed what he said. Acclaim is worth squat. Voyager was universally panned, and even got mediocre ratings, but it held on for dear life. Now and Again, critically acclaimed and even quite good in the ratings I do believe, was dropped. There is no logic in TV land, trying to find one is meaningless. The only logic the execs find is in Nielsen figures and advertisings revenues.

Finally, I forgot to post something very important in my review. If I had heard "We live for the one, we die for the one" one more *$£"!*&$£ time I would have gone mad. Way, way overused.

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"You're going to die screaming and I'm going to watch."
-- Charlie, The Long Kiss Goodnight.

Jade Jaguar · Dec 19, 2001

Drakh, while I don't disagree with either your premises or conclusions, there is one other factor involved with the declining ratings that you don't mention. Due to the incredible profusion of cable channels, viewership on the broadcast networks has been declining for years, and that is certainly part of the reason for ST shows' ratings decline, but obviously not the only one.

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

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Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

MartinRoth · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:
...for a show on the Utterly Pathetic Network, yes.

[...]

And the ratings fell steadily each year, after starting out much higher than Enterprise.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep in mind that UPN and WB have fewer and weaker affiliates than the other networs - even than Fox, which is still somewhat behind the "big three." Even with increasing cable penetration, this still matters. A better comparison would be to look at market-by-market ratings in some places where UPN is on a full-power VHF station. (Which I could do if I had the time, but couldn't post any of the results anyway. Oh, well...)

That said, your point is still quite valid. Voyager's ratings did go down over the years, which everyone - even the people at Paramount - seemed to admit was good evidence that the franchise was running out of steam. Which is probably why Enterprise has taken a different approach.

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-- Marty

drakh · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by channe:
Let's not take this conversation to that level, shall we?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It was supposed to note that I actually consider you to have some degree of intelligence. I don't think that perception has changed.

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"Where? I don't see any guys; Just perverts!" (hear it)
-- Akane Tendo, "School is a Battlefield!", Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited December 19, 2001).]

drakh · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by MartinRoth:
Keep in mind that UPN and WB have fewer and weaker affiliates than the other networs - even than Fox, which is still somewhat behind the "big three."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Still, Voyager's first few episodes managed to get ratings not too far from TNG.

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"Where? I don't see any guys; Just perverts!" (hear it)
-- Akane Tendo, "School is a Battlefield!", Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

sassy · Dec 19, 2001

gaw, drakh...give it up ok? cha was JUST giving her opinion...OPINION thats all..

there are no right or wrong opinions.

back to the neilson ratings..

well, i was randomly chosen to do one of those..and i didn't. but I don't see why a handful of random people should tell me what is good to watch and what isn't. I would think they would have a better way to do this now that they have computers.

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This is my "be nice to Antony week"...WARNING~~MOOD SWING MAY HAPPEN WEEK AFTER NEXT...depending on the astrological projection of the hormonal balance.

Deviot · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by drakh:

It was supposed to note that I actually consider you to have some degree of intelligence. I don't think that perception has changed.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drahk Antony has already said it and now I am also saying it. Just drop it.

For the review it just makes me want to see it more...really as you said in the review if you had of said it was bad i would have watched it anyway...

And with Rangers turning to a series it disappoints me that people outisde of the USA cannot effect whether it will go to series

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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au

channe · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sassy:
gaw, drakh...give it up ok? cha was JUST giving her opinion...OPINION thats all..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I never wanted to turn this into a war

Let's both calm down.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

PsionTen · Dec 19, 2001

The funny thing is that the first b5lr review that appeared at AICN was more glowing than Anthony's. It sounded like a fair review to me. Anyway, I plan to see Lord of the Rings later today ... is there supposed to be a trailer for b5lr?

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

channe · Dec 19, 2001

If you live in one of the major 10 TV markets.

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The writer's life is not meant to be a happy one. We all accept that going in. -JMS

drakh · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Deviot:
Drahk Antony has already said it and now I am also saying it. Just drop it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don't get this. I was trying to convey to channe that what that what she interpeted as an insult was meant as a compliment.

Who would be sereved by letting that misunderstanding remain?

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"Where? I don't see any guys; Just perverts!" (hear it)
-- Akane Tendo, "School is a Battlefield!", Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

drakh · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sassy:
gaw, drakh...give it up ok?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Give up what exactly? I had resolved my disagreement with channe a good while before your reply. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>there are no right or wrong opinions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Time to dig out my old sig again:

You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

I'm pretty certain that my opinion on the matter was informed, and I'll remain so until someone is able to provide evidence that the numbers I quoted are wrong.

(And I have said nothing about quality. I like DS9 better than TNG, yet the numbers show that TNG is the only one deserving the title "ratings behemoth".)

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"Where? I don't see any guys; Just perverts!" (hear it)
-- Akane Tendo, "School is a Battlefield!", Ranma 1/2

drakh@spamcop.net

**DONOTDELETE** · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dylan Neal:

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Believe me when I say this, reviews mean nothing in this case. Reviews only carry weight in the film world (and basically only for nominations) and in very select cases within the television community (and only at the upper tier of shows).

On top of that, no one involved with the sci fi genre (I'm only referring to TV here) expects to get taken very seriously by critics or by the main stream media. Even when your show or performance does garner positive buzz it carries very little weight because of the general perception - Sarah Michelle Gellar will never be nominated for an Emmy despite being a media darling. Whenever you're dealing with monsters, ghouls, aliens or outer space you have to expect the mainstream to treat it as a niche market and the ratings reflect that.

Rangers will not receive glowing reviews from the mainstream media, in fact we won't even warrant a review from some of the publications you mention. B5 is not the behemoth that Star Trek is and will be treated accordingly.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I'd just like to point out that "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" has come near the top of the list of mainstream critics' polls. Sarah Michele Gellar may not get an Emmy nomination, but Joss Whedon has for scriptwriting. Gillian Anderson won an Emmy for X-Files. It can happen.

Also, I have kept a scrapbook of articles and reviews of Babylon 5. "In the Beginning" was reviewed by the NY Times, USA Today, New York Magazine and others. So, don't be shocked if this movie will get reviewed as well. I just wanted to give you a "heads-up" that it's possible they will review this movie as well.

BTW, even if reviews may not matter to them, SciFi rarely misses an opportunity to quote Farscape's positive reviews from mainstream critics in their ads for the show. I think some mainstream critics are willing to give SF a fair shake. Matt Roush of TV Guide is one SF-friendly critic.

One of the positive B5 reviews in my scrapbook is something nice he wrote about the episode "Intersections in Real Time" when he was a TV critic at USA Today.

However, being "SF Friendly", doesn't mean a critic still isn't going to be a softie to all SF.

...just my observations.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Dec 19, 2001

As an addendum to my last note, if you pick up the year-end issue of Entertainment Weekly, you'll find Buffy the Vampire Slayer listed as the #2 show of the year after The Sopranos.

I consider Entertainment Weekly mainstream.

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Wyvern · Dec 19, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SavantB5:
Also, I have kept a scrapbook of articles and reviews of Babylon 5. "In the Beginning" was reviewed by the NY Times, USA Today, New York Magazine and others. So, don't be shocked if this movie will get reviewed as well. I just wanted to give you a "heads-up" that it's possible they will review this movie as well.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm a touch confused by this statement - I don't think that it was a question of whether or not it "would" be reviewed. As far as I know, almost everything is reviewed. The point was that the reviews - good, bad, or indifferent, don't make much difference.

I'd be willing to bet, based on memory at least, that your review of "The Gathering" didn't give it a very good review - and it lasted 5 years because of viewer support. On the other side of the coin, one of the episodes (I hate it when I remember facts partially...

) won a MAJOR sci-fi award - obviously a wonderful review - but the show nearly got cancelled regardless.

I think the summary of what's been said is that it doesn't matter whether it's a good show or a bad show; if people are watching it and the advertisers are making money, then it stays on the air. If the advertisers aren't happy, it gets dumped, even if the show received the Nobel Peace Prize or something.

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"Now, get the hell out of our galaxy, ya dad-gum kids! You keep tracking dirt on my planet. And if I see your dog again..."

News post: B5LR.com review of the telemovie!

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