movie talk (possible spoilers)

solaris5 · May 24, 2002

No one seems to be doing anything here, I mean, when I look at my main page, for each forum that I don't usually visit it says a couple of hundred new, for Babbleon a couple of thousand new, and for the ones I do visit about 20-30 new. For this forum it says 1 new. The last time I posted here was so long ago it's not even funny. Only conclusion, no one ever goes here.
Well, okay, let's talk about the movie now.
What did everyone think of the Hand? I mean, what would you like to have seen happen, and how do you think the alliance could beat them.
To my understanding, the ships they fought weren't the hand, they were little crappy ones given to a slave race. So it's natural to assume that the real ones are gonna own majorly, since these already kicked a lot of ass.
And what of the haunted ship? The ghosts didn't go away, they just chose to shut up for the moment. Would they have done another haunted episode? And if yes, what would the possible themes be?

hypatia · May 24, 2002

Yea, Sol, that was pretty bad timing for you (having just seen the Rangers tv-movie).

There was a lot of talk about what you bring up. I wondered too how they'd handle an enemy like "the Hand". My best guess is only that JMS was going to exploit the business about Rangers working (how was it put, unnoticed and [dare I say it?] in the "shadows"?) /ubbthreads/images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Anyhow, I was just hoping he would have something surprising ready to deal with the Hand. It seemed like it could be an old stab at his own old plot, but I don't think the Hand would merrily pop off beyond the rim with Lorien the way the Shadows and the Vorlons did.

My best guess about the ghosts is that he had some ideas but might have been willing to drop the ghost theme if it did not prove to be popular with the younger viewers (by younger I mean in their 20's). There was a lot of criticism about the ghosts, so JMS might have done a brief follow-up if it turned out most of the fans didn't like it.

The big thing that surprised me was the fact that so many people hated the idea of the weapons. They mostly seemed to adore the actress, but hated the idea. It did seem more than a bit impractical. Even our current gunners don't have to work as hard to get a simple shot fired.

Anyhow, if you can find them, there are old threads that discuss this. Personally, I don't have a lot of luck with this site's search engine, and I've never really bothered to learn how to use it better. But there was a lot of discussion about the points you just brought up.

And there was a LOT of discussion about whether or not the Hand was a mistake on JMS's part. (Since we couldn't beat the Shadows and the Vorlons, how could be possibly beat a force that "took the Shadows lunch money" so long ago?)

It's a damned shame we'll probably never know. /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif

KoshN · May 24, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
 No one seems to be doing anything here, I mean, when I look at my main page, for each forum that I don't usually visit it says a couple of hundred new, for Babbleon a couple of thousand new, and for the ones I do visit about 20-30 new. For this forum it says 1 new. The last time I posted here was so long ago it's not even funny. Only conclusion, no one ever goes here.
<hr></blockquote>

Yes, because there seems to be not much left to say, and because it appears that Sci-Fi has passed on the series.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
 Well, okay, let's talk about the movie now.
<hr></blockquote>

OK, I'll try to not bring up anything that was beaten to death in January.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
 What did everyone think of the Hand? I mean, what would you like to have seen happen, and how do you think the alliance could beat them.
<hr></blockquote>

I thought the movie should have SHOWN The Hand and their ships, say in flashbacks at the archeological site, maybe via newly discovered data crystals (like discovered hours ago, otherwise they could have viewed them on Minbar), or archeological carvings to be translated by say MAX EILERSON. After all, Max is probably working with IPX in 2265. It wouldn't be any stretch at all to see him on such an important dig. We should have SEEN "something" of The Hand, not just their cronies. We should have SEEN the archeological site. We should have SEEN remains of the probe that returned through the portal. Because we didn't SEE any of this, The Hand lack credibility of threat. Sure the dirty snowflake ship cronies were powerful, but they could be making all this stuff up. They could be doing it to sound like they have these big, badass allies, but they could be lying. Without SEEING The Hand, it's like a buildup to nothing, a whimper not a BANG.

More Ranger ships should have been involved in the mission. They should have gotten at least one Whitestar model done to use on the mission, to make a stronger firefight and establish a level of enemy ship force that we could measure against the B5 universe ships, and to establish stronger visual ties to the "B5 Universe" with which we're familiar. That would have helped tremendously, lending much needed familiarity, and sense of scale. The three featured ships were all previously unknown, never seen before in the "B5 Universe." We don't know how powerful the enemy ships are, because we don't know how powerful the Valen and Liandra are. There was no known benchmark. Were it not for the Minbari, Narn, and Drazi characters we saw, and the couple Nial fighters and Whitestars, and B5 that we very briefly saw, it was almost as if the characters were in a different universe, on a different show that had no connection to the B5 universe.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
 To my understanding, the ships they fought weren't the hand, they were little crappy ones given to a slave race. So it's natural to assume that the real ones are gonna own majorly, since these already kicked a lot of ass.
<hr></blockquote>

True, but we should have SEEN some of The Hand and their actual ships, somehow, not fighting them in the present but in historical records.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
 And what of the haunted ship? The ghosts didn't go away, they just chose to shut up for the moment. Would they have done another haunted episode? And if yes, what would the possible themes be? <hr></blockquote>

Anything that gives Dulann more to do, is fine by me. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

As it was, the movie reminded me of cotton candy, looks big, but there is a lot of air in there. Not much richness/complexity (thread density). Strangely, this is how I felt about Crusade episodes when I first saw them (in TNT's order), but Crusade had a lot more visual cues from the B5 universe. "To Live and Die in Starlight," didn't have nearly as many connections to the B5 universe. It was like the council we saw in the movie. A lot of people, myself included, thought it was probably the Gray Council. In all of B5, we'd only ever seen one Minbari council like that, and it was the Gray Council, so it was a natural assumption, and it was wrong. The question is, why try to fake out and confuse the audience?

ps.: I posted this response to rastb5m (minus your name, Sol, and all other connections to b5lr.com), so JMS could see it and maybe come up with a response. He probably won't respond, and if he does, he'll probably be pissed at me for the criticism, but so be it. I still wanted him to see it.

solaris5 · May 24, 2002

I agree with you on a lot of points. It would've been really cool to give us atleast something about the hand. But maybe keeping them all mysterious makes them a more intimidating enemy. I mean, very little was known about the Shadows, that's why everyone feared them.
As to the gunnery scenes, well, I think she did the best she could, but no one could've actually made that look good. It was a piss-poor idea to begin with.

KoshN · May 24, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
 I agree with you on a lot of points. It would've been really cool to give us atleast something about the hand. But maybe keeping them all mysterious makes them a more intimidating enemy. I mean, very little was known about the Shadows, that's why everyone feared them.
<hr></blockquote>

Well the Shadows weren't first mentioned in a pilot. The Vorlons were, but they were shown. [The Gathering]

You can keep The Hand mysterious by not going overboard with what you show, but you do need to SHOW something. Keeping them 99.99999999999999% mysterious doesn't work if you want to hook the viewers on the idea, and develop some intrigue. They need to SEE something of the actual threat, not just hear words from some crony.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
 As to the gunnery scenes, well, I think she did the best she could, but no one could've actually made that look good. It was a piss-poor idea to begin with. <hr></blockquote>

Now I said I wasn't going to discuss that which we'd all beaten to death in January. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

solaris5 · May 24, 2002

Well, I don't know, I just steered clear of all of that because I hadn't seen it yet and I didn't want any spoilers. Sufficeth to say I was very succesfull at it, apart from knowing who everyone is, and the name of the ships, I knew nothing about the actual plot of the movie.

KoshN · May 25, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
Well, I don't know, I just steered clear of all of that because I hadn't seen it yet and I didn't want any spoilers. Sufficeth to say I was very succesfull at it, apart from knowing who everyone is, and the name of the ships, I knew nothing about the actual plot of the movie.<hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I "get" where you're coming from. I just was refraining from stirring up the same exact hornet's nest (e.g. the discussion about the weapons pod sequences) yet again. /ubbthreads/images/icons/eek.gif

solaris5 · May 25, 2002

I see, so I'm assuming that's already gone to hell and back. So who won? The Pro, or the Anti? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

Talathanar · May 25, 2002

A better idea of the Hand's strength in a flashback (heehee) would have been watching Vorlon and Shadow ships fighting togeather against them. Bear in mind, sure we saw the White Stars kicking serious booty, the Sharlin (Minbari cruisers) doing the same. The simple fact is what Kafta (?) said about the Hand: "They make the Shadows look like insects."

Had a White Star been put against a real hand vessel it would have been popped like a zit. If the had is as powerful as Kafta (?) said a Shadow/Vorlon combat scene would have proven more useful for the "Uh..they're going to beat them how?" effect.

solaris5 · May 25, 2002

The idea that I got from this is that the Vorlons and Shadows weren't around when the Hand was owning everyone. They were booted out by an even more ancient race.

Talathanar · May 25, 2002

You know that's a good point given the fact that the city that temple looking thing was found in was ~1 billion years old. Thing is we don't know if the city was there before the Hand was banished or if it was created to do the banishing.

Thing is though that the Shadow's are also a very old race, IIRC in the B5 board they keep saying that the shadows are a second or third generation to Lorien's race as are the Vorlons.

**DONOTDELETE** · May 25, 2002

My speculation about defeating the Hand...

Perhaps no battle at all.
Perhaps a small battle.
Perhaps a straw man.

After all, large wars are written down and remembered. Fighting an enemy comparable to the Shadows would have been impossible. Because the Shadows and Vorlons were never defeated. They chose to leave.

Vorlons lost one planetkiller to fellow First Ones, while the Shadow planetkiller (or some similar weapon) captured the united fleet of the younger races quite easily.

Although this was implied later in the Technomage books, one may suspect that the Shadows could build such planetkillers at amazing rates. With an unexperienced Drakh telling what it wanted, the planetkiller assembled itself in 30 minutes.

Clearly an enemy who managed to oppose these creatures (even in their mutual childhood, when both races were less experienced) would be overwhelming in strength. They would still be overwhelming in strength... unless the insects minded losing their lunch money.

I have developed the impression that "leaving a thousand worlds in their wake" came before meeting the Shadows. I suspect that long ago, the Hand went on a conquering spree across the galaxy. Their motivation remains unknown, but was neither chaos nor order.

For the sake of simplicity, let us presume that their motivation was less enlightened self-interest. Which worlds they left in their wake remains unknown. But surely enough, they eventually reached remote places on the Rim...

...and took someones lunch money. I suspect that the individual whose lunch money was taken... did not enjoy such practises. No matter if it resisted or fled, succeeded or failed, it surely informed the associates. Disillusioned by hearing of such rudeness, the associates probably woke up, taking their lunch back.

What their preparation included, who were their allies or whether they acted alone... remains unknown. Perhaps this was the first Shadow war? But as the Shadows continued while the Hand was banished, we may suspect who won. Somebody defeated the Hand. Perhaps even too successfully, for the enemy was worried enough... to seal itself off into another dimension.

Whoever defeated the Hand made sure it would stay out of their diet. Quite possibly destroyed the jump gates (or other means of travel) which the Hand used to escape. We may presume that some means of communication stayed intact, and was later discovered by Kafta's people.

By bargain, deception or force, the Hand somehow gained influence over Kafta's people and shaped them into loyal servants. Perhaps by providing technical advise to anyone who would serve them. That technical advise probably had another goal too...

...building some way, some gate or bridge allowing the Hand to return. What they would do after that... would no longer depend on their vassals. They might finish their spree of conquering cut short by stonger opponents. Given their long isolation, they might hate all life different of their own.

They might be surprised by how much the galaxy has changed. They might fail to compete against forms of life much younger, but not weaker. They might find some weapons, fleets and technologies quite an obstacle. They might find the latest pieces of the Shadow-Vorlon chess match quite difficult (telepaths and technomages).

But the conflict would never reach that stage. I believe that if the pilot movie stressed the motive of Rangers fleeing from battle, the culmination of the Hand storyline (presumably only a small part of overall story) would have stressed the opposite.

"We walk in the dark places which nobody enters."

Quite possibly, the Rangers could have turned Kafta's people against their masters/advisors. The Hand would find itself locked out of this world by their own minions.

"We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass."

Or perhaps, the lock-out scenario would only be part of their stopping. Quite possibly, there would have been a battle for the "bridge". In the end, the Rangers would have either held or destroyed the bridge.

channe · May 25, 2002

*is furiously scribbling a fiction about all of this... 'cause she's gotta know...* /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

KoshN · May 26, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by solaris5:
I see, so I'm assuming that's already gone to hell and back. So who won? The Pro, or the Anti? /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif<hr></blockquote>

I'd say that the anti-Weapons Pod group won. That seems to be the thing that most people hate about the movie. When the movie gets to the minefield destroying scene, I have to leave the room. The thing is that such vigorous, large movements would seem to be inefficient, tiring and unnecessary, and when used in the scene, seem to be WAY, WAY over the top.

Why not point at a target with a finger, select weapons (assuming that there's more than one type of weapon available) and fire from a holographic console (like the console Dulann used just before he heard from the ghosts)?

And who says the weapons officer even has to be shown doing her thing, anyway? This is not like some strange thing we've never seen before. Ships fire, and things get destroyed. Did we see the weapons officer at work every time we saw the Excalibur firing? No, and it's a good thing we didn't. When we did see the weapons officer, it was a weaker, more cumbersome scene. Show of hands: How many thought the Excalibur's targeting system was slow and unwieldy? I did! The problem is that an efficient system of firing (e.g. a joystick/videogame type of system) looks trite, because we're used to seeing it/using it, and associate it with "toys/videogames".

I say, leave targeting systems a mystery. If you try to explain it, you risk fumbling the whole concept, and making it look cumbersome, like they'd never be able to respond fast enough in a real battle. If you are going to show the details of the weapons firing and targeting systems in action, make sure it looks like it would be workable in a real battle.

Anybody remember the two motorized chair people in the whitestar? Whatever happened to them? Instead, we got Lennier and Marcus waving their hands over crystals and pushing a button. The latter worked much better. They left "how it worked" as a mystery.

KoshN · May 26, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
 My speculation about defeating the Hand...

Although this was implied later in the Technomage books, one may suspect that the Shadows could build such planetkillers at amazing rates. With an unexperienced Drakh telling what it wanted, the planetkiller assembled itself in 30 minutes.<hr></blockquote>

Actually, that was in the Centauri Prime trilogy (Book 2, IIRC). Four technomages were involved though.

gangster · May 26, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by KoshN:
 And who says the weapons officer even has to be shown doing her thing, anyway? <hr></blockquote>

In this instance, the weapons pod scene was to estalish Sarah with the viewers as a main player in the show (and series if it had come about,) and not simply a background figure.

KoshN · May 26, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by gangster:
In this instance, the weapons pod scene was to estalish Sarah with the viewers as a main player in the show (and series if it had come about,) and not simply a background figure.<hr></blockquote>

Then, they couild have shown her waving her hands over crystals and pushing buttons, or pointing at ships in a holo-display (like the Ranger council member Sindell did, and as Sarah did when she was magnifying an image), and pushing holo-buttons.

**DONOTDELETE** · May 26, 2002

KoshN:

My mistake. That was indeed the Centauri trilogy. And unless my memory fails, Vir used a really advanced weapon to gain control of the planetkiller, and fire at the construction base...

Spoiler:
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler">Whacked the Drakh with a rock.</td></tr></table>

gangster · May 26, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by KoshN:
Then, they couild have shown her waving her hands over crystals and pushing buttons, or pointing at ships in a holo-display (like the Ranger council member Sindell did, and as Sarah did when she was magnifying an image), and pushing holo-buttons.<hr></blockquote>

True, but what you suggest wouldn't have the same impact as the weapons pod scene did. This scene, whether one likes it or not, was effective in establishing Sarah since everyone remembers this scene and, thus, Sarah.

KoshN · May 26, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by gangster:
True, but what you suggest wouldn't have the same impact as the weapons pod scene did. This scene, whether one likes it or not, was effective in establishing Sarah since everyone remembers this scene and, thus, Sarah.<hr></blockquote>

What? Is that somewhat along the lines as the only really bad advertising is that which doesn't put you in people's memories? I'm sure they could have made it (pointing at ships in a holo-display and pushing holo-buttons) "dramatic" without being over-the-top.

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