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Life and Death for crusade

KoshN:

Thanks for filling in the details on that. As I suspected, Galen is only briefly active outside the Sanctuary prior to ACtA, and is engaged in business related to events in the film. So he wouldn't be free to show up on Rangers until we're already in the Crusade timeframe.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I would also have concerns about the quality of both shows given how much work JMS is said to have had to do when he was working on B5:TOS alone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The situation now is very different. On B5 JMS was establishing an entirely new fictional universe, societies, politics, technology, etc. He was also telling a very intricately-plotted story.

The main reason he wrote all but one episode of the last three seasons was that it would have been too hard to assign the scripts to outside writers - he didn't always know which of the events he knew had to happen should go into which script.

Often it was only the writing of a script, and finding its proper structure, that allowed him to see which scenes from other threads should be used as the "B" and sometimes "C" stories. If he had assigned scripts to freelance writers, he probably would have needed to devote substantial time to briefing them on the arc and then rewriting their material to remove continuity glitches and things that would adversely affect later episodes.

This was the main problem in S3. By S4 he knew that the series was likely to be cancelled because of the pending collapse of PTEN, but also knew that Warner Bros. was trying to sell the series elsewhere. So he had to simultaneously plan for both having and not having a fifth season. When S5 started he was planning Crusade, and certain story threads from S5 were moved into it. Meanwhile the departure of Claudia Christian require massive adjustments to the Teep Arc. Again, it was simply easier and more efficient to write almost everything himself than to try to explain all this to a freelance writer assigned a single script.

By the time B5 was over, JMS had learned a great deal about doing "arc" shows, and how the Real World could intrude to make them more difficult. So, beginning with Crusade, he decided on a "less intense" arc that would present a continuing story, but leave more room for stand-alone episodes and also more flexibility. Overlapping shorter arcs were another option considered, especially since this could allow him to wrap up the series in four of five seasons, but also allow him to extend it to six or seven if the ratings were there - which wasn't really an option with B5.

He made it very clear that he didn't plan on writing more than half the Crusade S1 scripts himself, and that the ratio might drop in subsequent years, once the show had "found its feet." Then he could step back into the executive producer role proper, assigning, overseeing and rewriting scripts where needed, and managing the overall production.

He seems to be following this pattern on Jeremiah as well, and his comments on Rangers suggest a similar approach. (Jeremiah, being a pay cable show, also has a slightly shorter season than the other series - 18 episodes vs. 22.)

It seems to me that as long as no two shows are actually being started in the same year, JMS should have no more trouble producing three or even four series than he did producing B5, because the actual workload won't be that much greater if he isn't also writing everything. Very possibly he'll put together a regular writing staff ala the Trek shows.

The fact that all three would be shot in Vancouver, and at least Rangers and Crusade shot in the same facility (as well as sharing costumes, props and production personnel) should make the whole thing manageable, provided it is all organized properly. If Dick Wolf can have multiple series running at the same time, all of high quality, I don't see why JMS wouldn't be able to do the same. (Not to mention someone like Norman Lear, who probably holds the world record for simultaneous critical and commercial TV successes.)

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
I hope this isn't a redundant posting...

Hi, Everybody! I made an insane observation, which led to an insane deduction, and here it is:

TV shows stay on the air due to ratings. But the ratings themselves are useless. They're only valuable to advertisers. Advertisers don't care if a show is widely popular or not, they just want more people to see their ads, believing that this will make more people buy their product or service. Since a show's mass appeal is really moot in this financial chain of events, any problems with popularity can be short-circuited with the dedicated, unified efforts of a minority of people. Therefore, according to this theory, a small group of people can (despite low ratings and lack of popularity) keep a show healthy and alive.

I did say it was insane
blush.gif
. I've even got rebuttal arguments to it! I guess I'll post them at a later date, unless someone beats me to it
smile.gif
. Personally, I can't get enough of the B5 universe (even though I'm a newbie to it). I'd like to see Crusade come back and Legend of the Rangers fly!

------------------
I made an insane observation, which lead to an insane deduction...
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Advertisers don't care if a show is widely popular or not, they just want more people to see their ads<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A show's popularity is measured by how many people watch it, not by how much each person watching a show likes it. Therfore "popularity" = "ratings"

So your entire suggestion is based on a fallacy. No, a small number of people cannot save a show that isn't peforming from oblivion. Very rarely a concerted fan effort can save a marginal show. If a network has two shows that aren't doing well, and it needs to ax one of them, the one with the organized fan campaign might be saved, all other things being equal. But not necessarily, and certainly not otherwise.

The problem with logic is that perfect logic will lead you unerringly to the wrong conclusion if you start out with bad original facts.

In any event, ratings were not Crusade's problem. The show was axed before it aired and before there were any ratings. (When the ratings finally came they were unspectactular, but decent. Comparable to other stuff the network was airing.) So I'm not sure what relevence this would have to the discussion, even if your ideas about ratings and popularity were valid.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It seems to me that as long as no two shows are actually being started in the same year, JMS should have no more trouble producing three or even four series than he did producing B5, because the actual workload won't be that much greater if he isn't also writing everything. Very possibly he'll put together a regular writing staff ala the Trek shows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When JMS hit his deadline crunch last year that caused him to delay the three comic books he was writing, there were a couple of factors he hadn't counted on:

1. Warners wanted to put Rising Stars on a fast track for a 2002 release, so JMS had to complete the script.

2. Jeremiah ran into unseen problems in trying to get the project up and running. The series is the most ambitious project JMS has undertaken himself, both in scale and production costs.

That, combined with Delicate Creatures and Legend of the Rangers, forced JMS to put a couple of things on hold. However, this was not because of the *amount* of work, but the fact all of the work hit their deadlines all at once. Now, Jeremiah is up and running, he's got his comics back to a few issues ahead of schedule, Delicate Creatures is finished, Legend of the Rangers is ready to go to series, and Rising Stars has been turned in. It's more a matter of scheduling than anything else.

If Crusade were renewed, it would happen until at least after Rangers' first season, so SciFi can see if the ratings warrant another investment into the B5 universe. A revival wouldn't be as demanding on JMS as creating a whole new series, since all of the sets are still in storage (we hope) and several scripts were already written but unfilmed. And as Joe mentioned above, Rangers and Jeremiah would both be in a position that JMS could handle the writing workload, so getting Crusade up and running wouldn't be much of a problem on his end.



------------------
It's the quiet ones who change the universe. The loud ones only take the credit.
 
The things that exhausted JMS during B5 were teh fact that he was performing Not TWO, but THREE jobs. Executive Producer, Writer, Editor. He was actively involved in every part of it including sound and music, getting the feel of each episode just Right.

Plus spending 5 or 6 hours every day online.

He's sworn never to get in that deep again.

Oh, part of the reason he spent so much time Online was that it was ALSO part of the B5 experiment.

He said at one point that he hoped to someday write a book about how his online conversations helped shape the show.

Particularly during the early planning stages, jms posted a lot of info about what he was hoping to accomplish. Comments and questions from the fans involved in the discussion helped him to clarify his thoughts about what Babylon 5 eventually became.


------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
Hello everybody, and thanks for the warm welcome Joseph DeMartino! I've never felt quite so at home!

It was quite enjoyable to be taken rather seriously, despite the fact that I, myself, believed myself quite insane
laugh.gif
.

I know my theory was ludicrous, but I still can't make out with any certainty why you think it couldn't work. According to my theory, ratings are useless, which makes popularity unimportant. Ratings are like middlemen. Sorta like a car is a middleman between a person and their destination. Ratings is one model of car. Surely there are other models of cars that can get the person to their destination?

No reason why a person couldn't travel in a Volkswagon when they can't have a Porsche...

As to this being off topic, I think you're right... Maybe I should start it as its own topic... It was just such an entertaining idea that I wanted to post it somewheres
laugh.gif
.

------------------
I made an insane observation, which lead to an insane deduction...
 
Hi, Everybody.

I only got to watch a little of Crusade, unfortunately. I wish SciFi hadn't pulled it off the air. I recall reading, though, that the show had continuity problems. Wouldn't this doom the first 13 episodes and call for a complete reworking of the entire series? Or is what I read incorrect?

------------------
I made an insane observation, which lead to an insane deduction...
 
A lot has been made of Crusade plot threads perhaps being covered by a LOTR series, but that would not satisfy me.

What I grew to enjoy so much about Crusade was the core *characters*.

I want to see what happens with Gideon and Galen, even Dureena. The evolving Galen-Gideon dynamic was awesome. I even found the Gideon-Lochley thing interesting -- and there were hints of something strange between Galen and Dureena a few times. Hell, even Max grew on me.

It's a damned shame.

I want to know the rest of their story. The actual solution to the Drakh Plague is something I can settle for reading about someday in a one paragraph synopsis on Lurker's Guide.

And characters of this caliber are what seem to be missing from LOTR.

------------------
newscaper,
from the SciFi Channel Farscape BB
 
No, any continuity problems that might exist are small.
Some of what people Think are continuity problems are due to the episodes being shown out of order.
Others are most likely JMS setting things up to happen Later.
Just like there were things in the first season of Babylon 5 that didn't "pay off" until the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or even 5th season.

That said, there are always going to be small inconsistencies in any show.
But, if Trek can be successful in spite of the famous "Reset Button" which creates continuity problems with Every Episode, Crusade can survive a few petty quibbles.
Especially if those quibbles turn out to be Easter Eggs.





------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
KoshN:

Thanks for filling in the details on that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem. I have notes written in the front of all the B5 books I've read. I did it to "red flag" notable occurances for future reference, and it's come in handy, a lot.
smile.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
As I suspected, Galen is only briefly active outside the Sanctuary prior to ACtA, and is engaged in business related to events in the film. So he wouldn't be free to show up on Rangers until we're already in the Crusade timeframe.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prior to ACtA, he could go the electron incantation route.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
In any event, ratings were not Crusade's problem. The show was axed before it aired and before there were any ratings. (When the ratings finally came they were unspectactular, but decent.
Comparable to other stuff the network was airing.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's amazing that that Crusade didn't get horrible ratings, given all the ways TNT wounded the show.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kazne:
Hi, Everybody.

I only got to watch a little of Crusade, unfortunately. I wish SciFi hadn't pulled it off the air.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sci-Fi didn't "pull it off the air." They ran the 13 episodes in April 2001, October 8, 2001, and again this month.

TNT cancelled Crusade in January 1999, ~6 months before the first episode aired. Then they tried to prevent the completion (the post-production of the first five episodes that were shot, the ones most of us love). When that didn't work, they aired them out of order. Then when Sci-Fi want to buy the remainder of their rights from them, they asked for a ridiculous amount of money for them (to prevent Crusade from being a success anywhere else. Perhaps, TNT is the one you meant, not Sci-Fi.

JoeD, please correct me if I'm misremembering any of this.
smile.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kazne:
I recall reading, though, that the show had continuity problems. Wouldn't this doom the first 13 episodes and call for a complete reworking of the entire series? Or is what I read incorrect?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it had continuity problems. 13 episodes were filmed. One of these episodes, War Zone, was never meant to exist, but was demanded by TNT. So, 10 episodes are missing.

The existing 12 episodes that were meant to exist, were not meant to be shown back-to-back. Some of the missing 10 episodes were supposed to be interspersed between them. TV is shot this way for budget purposes, to make the most cost and time effective use of existing sets.

Some of the existing 12 episodes that were meant to exist, containg audio looping to make better sense of the TNT airing order. This creates continuity problems if the existing 12 are shown in the Sci-Fi airing order. However, the Sci-Fi order works best from a story standpoint if you ignore the uniform change.

Theoretically, the dialogue could be re-looped to remove the continuity problems that they cause, and To the Ends of the Earth could be filmed to explain the unioform change. That would be the way to make the maximum use of the existing episodes, and eliminate continuity problems. This is probably more likely (for money reasons), and is the method I prefer, than completely re-making the first season from scratch. There's a lot of good stuff in the existing 12 episodes that were meant to exist.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by newscaper:
A lot has been made of Crusade plot threads perhaps being covered by a LOTR series, but that would not satisfy me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think JMS means to do this through the appearance of the core Crusade characters in B5:LotR, only if it is decided not to resurrect Crusade.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by newscaper:
What I grew to enjoy so much about Crusade was the core *characters*.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by newscaper:
I want to see what happens with Gideon and Galen, even Dureena. The evolving Galen-Gideon dynamic was awesome. I even found the Gideon-Lochley thing interesting -- and there were hints of something strange between Galen and Dureena a few times. Hell, even Max grew on me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From seeing the original TNT airing (and I did catch all of it), I started out disliking Max. As the series progressed, Max grew on me the most. Galen was far and away my initial favorite character. The only character, that I didn't like, that didn't seem to improve much, IMHO, was Dr. Chambers. She seemed more wooden that Sinclair ever was in B5's pilot (e.g. the Sinclair/Sykes throwing the medal at the wall scene).


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by newscaper:
It's a damned shame.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, definitely!!!


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by newscaper:
And characters of this caliber are what seem to be missing from LOTR.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, give them a chance. Listing only the regulars, I think Dulann, David, and Na'Feel are as good as the best characters we saw in Crusade. Next would come Firell, Malcolm, Kitaro, Tafeek, and Tirk, as being very good. The only character I would list as good but with some bad moments (e.g. list with Dr. Chambers of Crusade), was Sarah, because of a few specific scenes:

The "weapons are offline" scene in the Enfali. Yeah, they're offline, and....? Elaborate. Weapons expected to be back online in ___ hours??? Weapons are completely shot to hell, and are not repairable without going back to Minbar??? What is it? (The writing screwed her here.)

"It ain't over 'till it's over" scene.

The hold me back or I'll deck Tannier scene.

The punching scenes in the weapons pod. (Too much effort. Did she feel the physical mass of the bolts? It seemed like she was pushing shotputs attached at her knuckles.)

The long scream scene when destroying the mines. (That was embarassing.)


However, this is only the pilot, so this stuff is new to all of them. Some people catch on very quickly and hit the ground running (things just click), some catch on and bloom a bit later, and others never catch on at all (e.g. Chambers, & maybe Lochley). We'll have to wait for the series, to see which of the latter two categories Sarah falls into. I think she just has to get comfortable in the role, and become Sarah.

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/


[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited January 27, 2002).]
 

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