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Just watched War Without an End

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hypatia:
<font color=yellow>DG you confused me for a moment. Then I realized you meant the "circle" quote, not the "avalanche" quote, didn't you?

Who did say it, btw? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Kosh II the nasty Vorlon.
 
I like WWE I and II as well. Actually, I just like it because I get to see Zathras, but I love how JMS made the storyline fit in so well. It was great writing on his part, I think. It just makes me admire the man for having thought that up so well.
 
One thing I never did quite figure out was: was Kosh basically the only Vorlon sympathetic to the younger races? Or did he symbolize one part of the Vorlon society and their viewpoints? Likewise, is Kosh II (as you put it, AM Swallow, the "evil Kosh") representing one "movement" in Vorlon society, or the majority of the Vorlons?

If there were really two "movements" then was it Kosh's death that triggered the complete breakdown of the old rules the Shadows and the Vorlons had always previously held to?

Oh, and if the Vorlons really did know who/what Sinclair was to become, why would they threaten him in the pilot?

Just some questions I thought I'd throw out there. Thanks, btw, AM Swallow, I honestly haven't seen those episode senough to remember who said that.

I guess I still have a life! /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
 
The Techno-mage books make it clear that Kosh was the only Vorlon that liked the younger races. The other Vorlons thought that the younger races were there to be bossed around.

Kosh II (his name is in book #7) is in the Vorlon military and appears to worse than the rest.

The loss of 2 of his actresses meant that JMS was unable to tidy up the lose ends from "The Gathering". (Tamlyn Tomita and Patricia Tallman)
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hypatia:
<font color=yellow> {snip}If there were really two "movements" then was it Kosh's death that triggered the complete breakdown of the old rules the Shadows and the Vorlons had always previously held to?
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

This may have persuaded the Vorlons that they will have to get tough with the Shadows but Sheridan's nuking of Z'ha'dum will have triggered it. I suspect that the Vorlons were unable to nuke/kill the planet. This showed that the Shadows were genuinely weak, rather than going to sleep because the younger races has scored a touch down.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>
Oh, and if the Vorlons really did know who/what Sinclair was to become, why would they threaten him in the pilot?
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

There is an odd thing about this. The Vorlon Empire was meant to be 8 days away but they got the fleet there in 2 days. Either the 8 days was a lie or the fleet was hiding 1 day away. I suspect that they were hiding 1 day away in hyperspace.

The threat against Sinclair was a very good excuse to show off the military power of the Vorlons. The display will have sent messages like FEAR and OBEY. The day after the demonstration most of the Ambassadors will have sent a report to their home planets that precises to - I can confirm the rumours, the Vorlons are very strong. Intelligence pictures enclosed.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>I suspect that the Vorlons were unable to nuke/kill the planet.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>I think that they could have destroyed Z'ha'dum anytime. Not that it would have mattered. If climate was any indicator, Z'ha'dum already suffered from a nuclear winter. Somebody had already done it. The spidery ones left and came back when the dust had settled.

The fact that Z'ha'dum self-destructed when Lyta alerted its defenses showed that the planet was purely a symbol. When presented withe the option of Vorlon minions accessing Shadow technology, the defense system decided without hesitation. To destroy the planet, for planets can be replaced.

It was only a place to gather, plan, form alliances and coordinate movements. One could say the Z'ha'dum was the Shadow equivalent of Babylon 5. They also returned there to honor Lorien (long after forgetting what it had taught them).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>This showed that the Shadows were genuinely weak, rather than going to sleep because the younger races has scored a touch down.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Rather doubtful. If their actions are to be trusted, the Shadows were simply surprised. After that they became disillusioned and really bitter. They were clearly not planning to lose. So when one side brought out their planetkillers, the other responded in kind.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>There is an odd thing about this. The Vorlon Empire was meant to be 8 days away but they got the fleet there in 2 days. Either the 8 days was a lie or the fleet was hiding 1 day away.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Perhaps it assumed Humans speeds. Vorlons can go faster.
Especially if they stomp on the throttle.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr><font color=yellow>The threat against Sinclair was a very good excuse to show off the military power of the Vorlons. The display will have sent messages like FEAR and OBEY.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Good point. But would you play such games spontaneously when your own past/future is involved? In my opinion it was more likely that the Vorlons were doing what they knew they had to do. Because someone called Valen had strongly recommended, lest they mess up the time loop and cause themselves an enormous pain in the butt (read: more Shadows) .
 
remember the "unexpected door" that Kosh II said that Sheridan's attack had opened. I admit I never fully understood this line, either. Za’Hadum was hardly destroyed by that attack, Sheridan really just knocked out one part of their colony. Even Morden didn’t die in the attack. He was, shall we say, worse for the wear, but he was not killed.

I'll just have to wait for the episodes to come around again so I can watch them again.

It is fun to debate, though, is it not? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hypatia:
<font color=yellow>remember the "unexpected door" that Kosh II said that Sheridan's attack had opened. I admit I never fully understood this line, either. Za’Hadum was hardly destroyed by that attack, Sheridan really just knocked out one part of their colony. Even Morden didn’t die in the attack. He was, shall we say, worse for the wear, but he was not killed.

I'll just have to wait for the episodes to come around again so I can watch them again.

It is fun to debate, though, is it not? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
I do believe the comment about Sheridan "opening an unexpected door" was not referring to him attacking Z'Ha'Dum, but rather his asking Kosh I for help, and Kosh I giving it in the Episode 'Interludes and Examinations'. Remember until that point Vorlons and Shadows had NEVER directly confronted each other in battle. That was the first time, and I think Kosh II meant that by doing that, it made the Vorlons realize that they should just wipe out the Shadows to prevent their 'disease' of Chaos from spreading. Keep in mind it was soon after that comment that the Vorlons started using their Planetkillers.
 
Good point, Recoil. I too think that the other Vorlons weren't quite prepared for Kosh's helping Sheridan. Most of them didn't care about the younger races at all, but Kosh cared enough about them to risk that ages-old agreement not to confront the Shadows directly. I think that is because he probably knew that Sheridan was the key to defeating the Shadows, and maybe even to a degree, showing Kosh's counterparts that the Humans, Minbari, and others were capable of standing on their own without the help of the First Ones.
 
They probably threatened the station because that was the pressure needed to get the events to fold out as they did. It depends on how much Sinclair told the Vorlons after he became Valen on how much they did in the first two seasons because they knew that's what they were supposed to do and did not want to screw the timeline.
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
<font color=yellow> It depends on how much Sinclair told the Vorlons after he became Valen on how much they did in the first two seasons because they knew that's what they were supposed to do and did not want to screw the timeline.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>
That would be a weird kind of hell for me. "O.K. hypatia, feel free to be yourself just DON'T interfere with anything on this list" (produces list that is 10 yards long, in small print).

/ubbthreads/images/icons/eek.gif
 
How much could Valen say about the future? He definitely didn't want to screw anything up so he probably just told them the prophecies he remembered Valen said when he was Sinclair. I doubt he said much else. This brings an interesting thought... Was he forced into saying what he said b/c of what valen said in the past? That really doesn't make sense. Oh well i can't put into words right now.
 
Now you've asked an interesting quetion. You could look at it in one of two ways:
1) he followed the legend as he knew it
or
2) history asserted itself seeing as it had already happened and the end result is that no matter what he did, the legend followed it's ordained path.
 
1. He did what he had always done, because nothing could ever go differently. There was no choice at all. Everything is predetermined.

2. He did what he had always done, because he realized this was the best alternative. He could have given up at any point but didn't like the idea.

3. And how to prove it without doing differently, if doing differently defaults to the Shadows winning?
 
After the first time jump (into the year 2278) Sheridan is drawn back to Babylon 4. After he has somewhat recovered, he goes with Sinclair to install the time stabilizer in to the reactor of the space station. When another time flash passes them, Ivanova tries to contact Sheridan, but Sinclair tells her that Sheridan is gone again. Where did he ended up that time?

And if my memory is correct, didn't Delenn disappear also?

Regards,
TheInfection
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by TheInfection:
<font color=yellow>After the first time jump (into the year 2278) Sheridan is drawn back to Babylon 4. After he has somewhat recovered... [snip]...but Sinclair tells her that Sheridan is gone again. Where did he end up that time?

And if my memory is correct, didn't Delenn disappear also?</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>Perhaps he made several trips to Centauri Prime and back? Or ended up elsewhere, but failed to recall it? Either way, he did disappear for a second time, so he probably ended up somewhere/somewhen.

As for Delenn, she did disappear, after giving her time stabilizer to Sheridan. Following appearances of the blue-suited "One" were by Delenn. So as a minimum, we may assume that she appeared at different times on Babylon 4. Perhaps she also went further, perhaps not. In confused matters, trust only this: Minbari never tell the whole story. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
 
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by hypatia:
<font color=yellow>That would be a weird kind of hell for me. "O.K. hypatia, feel free to be yourself just DON'T interfere with anything on this list" (produces list that is 10 yards long, in small print).

/ubbthreads/images/icons/eek.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Good morning Mr Hypatia.

You mission impossible, if you choose to accept it, is over the next 1000 years to -
Drive the Shadows off Z'ha'dum.
Infect the Galaxy with telepaths.
Organise the Earth-Minbari War.
Arrange for the building of the Great Machine.
Arrange of the Building of Babylon 4 and 5.
Send Kosh as the Vorlon Ambassador to Babylon 5.
Arrange for Babylon 4 to be sent back in time with Valen/Sinclair.
Ensure the blood line of Lyta.
Possibly help in making Sheridan, Garibaldi and Delenn.
Show the Minbari how to make Whitestars.
Possibly a few other things.

Good luck Jim.

This messenger will self destruct in 20 years.
 
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