FW: Glen Oliver & LOTR

[**DONOTDELETE**]

After seeing his name mentioned numerous times in posts in recent days, I contacted Glen Oliver (formerly of Coaxial, now of IGN FilmForce) to let him know. He tried coming over to post this himself, but he had problems with the registration process - so he asked me to post this for him.

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Hey folks! Glen Oliver here. For those of you who may not remember me, I used to cover all things Babylonian over at Aint it Cool News. I thought I'd poke my head in and say "Hi" (before the on-line masses spin in unison to hurl fruits and vegitables at me). If you wanna see how much I love B5, check out my review of B5's "Final Five" (available at http://aintitcoolnews.com/display.cgi?id=1954 ) to get a pretty good sense of what B5 meant (and still means) to me. I also chronicled Crusade's birth, death, rebirth, and subsequent demise for Aint it Cool. My opinions on such matters were not always popular, but I spoke my mind & said what I felt, even though my doing so made many people unhappy.

I've been monitoring the newsgroup messages & periphery madness surrounding "Captain Christopher Pike"s review of Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers. Even though it's been several years since I've been in this "game", it's amusing to see the passion and vitriol surrounding fandom have in no way subsided. I also find it comforting (and oddly appropriate) that B5's long awaited return to original programming should be accompanied by such fervor and chaos. However impractical, the wackiness preceding LOTR's run on Sci Fi seems reassuringly familiar, and even agreeable. After all, this is B5. Things never seem to come easy for this franchise, and its followers have never been soft-spoken

So, what the hell am I here to say? Well, I've seen Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers. I had to lean on some old & rusty sources to get it, but when this recent frenzy started, I just couldn't resist. So I got it, watched it, and I really didn't like it too much. I've read Pike's review and, while his presentation wasn't particularly appealing, I find the substance of what he says to be correct. I think the best word I (personally) could apply to "To Live and Die in Starlight" is "clumsy". It doesn't feel finished, it doesn't feel refined. And, it feels like it has no soul. And, yes, I *did* see a final product. The score was in place (Franke's score is one of the show's most successful elements. It is, indeed, surprisingly elegant and melodic), the effects were finished and integrated, the show's title sequence was in-place (glamour shots of the cast intermixed with various spoken/written Ranger adages, sayings, and philosophies), the show's bumpers were in place (the title design superimposed over footage from a forthcoming segment), the works.

It is not my intent to start a flamewar with JMS, and I'm not going to spend time here bashing this already-besieged TV movie. But, since my name and previous work at AICN/Coaxial has been evoked in this forum over the last few days, I thought I'd stop by and say I found Pike's criticisms pretty-much spot on, and maybe even a tad soft. I've seen the entirety of Babylon 5 and Crusade several times over (including the B5 TV movies). JMS says The Legend of the Rangers is a return to form, and feels more like classic B5. While I *will* say LOTR feels more like B5 than Crusade did, I strongly feel that anyone who thinks "To Live and Die in Starlight" stands in comparison to Babylon 5's best work musta been watching a completely different television series than I did. This telemovie does have some really nice moments, but the bulk of it feels "off".

Many people have trouble understanding that I'd like nothing more than to see this franchise succeed. After all, it's our "little show that could". Don't take my word for it, just watch it & determine for yourselves whether it is any good. Pike's words, Clutch's words, and even my words don't matter all that much. Only the number of people in front of their TV sets when the movie premieres in January will be the final arbiter.

Despite my criticisms, I extend my sincerest respects and salutations to JMS, and a heartfelt "best wishes" to the franchise and its fans. I was really looking forward to B5: LOTR, but found it woefully inadequate. None the less, I hope you enjoy it, and do not share my disappointment.

So long for now, and all the best.

Glen Oliver
glenoliver@hotmail.com

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[Demonn]

All I got to say is post your damn reviews on your own website. You're startin to piss me off when you come here and bash B5. Everyone forms their own opinions about this sort of thing, and from what I've seen this movie looks great.

[Don't flame. And who are you to kill any discussion on this? Consider this a warning --AF]

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A proud member of the Wind Swords.
"War is life and death is the only true peace."

[This message has been edited by AntonyF (edited October 23, 2001).]

 

[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War-Demon:
You're startin to piss me off when you come here and bash B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I thought he praised B5... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Everyone forms their own opinions about this sort of thing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Isn't that what Glen said?


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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

 

[Demonn]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> I thought he praised B5...
Isn't that what Glen said?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He praised B5 but bashed LotR, and since LotR is B5 I said he bashed B5.

He said something like that...

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A proud member of the Wind Swords.
"War is life and death is the only true peace."

 

[Nukemall]

well it appears that Mr Oliver has an informed opinion, to which he is entitled, n'est pas?

Regards

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"NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again..."

 

[channe]

I can't decide between the two parts of me - critic and fan - so I told them both to shut up and wait for the airing, when the critical fan will come together and make a final decision.

Until then, I'm gonna take everything I read, good and bad, with a grain of salt, expect nothing, etc.

I think that's the healthiest thing to do for all of us

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Channe, the next JMS, who lives for the One and dies for the chocolate cheesecake
--
OnlineDude: I suppose now would not be the time to bring up the old one about the starlet who was so new to Hollywood she slept with the writer...
JMS: But that was only because she heard that in Hollywood, *everyone* screws the writer.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War-Demon:
He praised B5 but bashed LotR, and since LotR is B5 I said he bashed B5.

He said something like that...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you actually *think* this way?

Let's see... Since a dog is an animal, and a cat is an animal, a dog must be a cat.



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[channe]

B5LR isn't B5. B5 isn't B5LR. That's for certain. Watch the ad hominem, Tobias - there's been enough of that wandering around these boards as it is.

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Channe, the next JMS, who lives for the One and dies for the chocolate cheesecake
--
OnlineDude: I suppose now would not be the time to bring up the old one about the starlet who was so new to Hollywood she slept with the writer...
JMS: But that was only because she heard that in Hollywood, *everyone* screws the writer.

[This message has been edited by channe (edited October 22, 2001).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

It's so good to hear from Glen Oliver again! The one guy who actually had integrity at AICN! (I still mourn the day he left leaving in his wake a wasteland fan-boys and illiterates!) Like many who’ve posted already, I think the best choice for all “Babs” fans is to wait and see, however I do trust Glen’s opinions and that makes me worry for the end result. But, the only thing that I would like to know is…how does “Legend of the Rangers” stack up against “The Gathering”? (a real piss poor pilot when compared to the overall series) I’ve noticed that both “Babylon 5” and “Star Trek: the Next Generation” had horrible starting movies but went on to fare well in their series runs, while Voyager, DS9 and even Crusade started off pretty strong (that, of course, depends on your own opinion) but suffered after that. Hopefully, this will get picked up so that it could be improved upon as was suggested by some of the cast. (Dylan, Warren and Miriam) Sci-Fi could really use another good series.

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Michael Garibalding: For starters, I don't know you, therefore I don't trust you.

 

[Emfeeli]

ok. again i'm going to repeat that I do not see why people take such offense to these reviewers. I don't listen to them--refuse to read them. If they're not fans, then don't give them any cred. I don't see why anyone would want to read anyone elses oppinions anyways. I knew that B5 was a great show without anyone telling me different. Make your own oppinions, and don't mind the other ones that dumb people have.

Phil

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"Tho' much is taken,much abides; and tho' we are not that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will. To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
-- Alfred Lord Tennyson
A poem left by Jeff Sinclair for John Sheridan

 

[taichidave]

Glen, I remember your stuff from AICN; it was always worth a read, even when I disagreed with you, as I did with Crusade. Good hearing from you again.

Isn't it little early to be calling TLaDiS an "already-besieged TV movie" though? That's the kind of language one would use when trying to put negative spin on things. Not that one would intentionally do such a thing, I'm sure.

The term "besieged" could easily have been applied to Crusade, but this situation is different. True, we have seen a couple of people who didn't enjoy it, but there's a network open to the possibility of success. Crusade was done before it even aired.

It's a rare pilot indeed that feels truly refined. That kind of refinement comes with time, learning what works and what doesn't in the context of a group of actors and the story. I'd be hard pressed while watching the Gathering to see the promise of B5 or to see how much I'd enjoy ST:TNG by watching Encounter at Farpoint.

I when B5:LR finally airs, I'll probably enjoy it. If not, I'll pout for a while, and move on.

On the topic of critics in general, I always thought the value of reading or hearing a review lies in the "relationship" between critic and audience. Reading just one review from any given critic is useless to me. Only over time, when I see what the critic and I agree and disagree on and why, do the reviews become a reliable indicator for how much I might enjoy a book, a film, etc.

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"We are (not) all Kosh."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I agree with taichidave. Good criticism has always been fun to read…whether you agree with the author or not. I enjoy seeking out and reading well written criticism from various sources cause it gives me an idea on how the subject has effected others. It’s no different from fans posting on message boards. In fact, those who feel that writing criticism is frustrated wannabees who don’t hang themselves out there creatively have it all wrong. It’s just as easy to knock a critic down a peg as it is a creator. Look at some of the movies Roger Ebert has has praised overt the years. It’s mind boggling to think he found anything redeemable in “Riding In Cars with Boys” while only giving “Army of Darkness” (a legendary piece of Cinema) only two stars.

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Michael Garibalding: For starters, I don't know you, therefore I don't trust you.

 

[Bab5nutz]

An awful lot of people didn't Like RIVER OF SOULS, and no-one is beating them up over it. Some B5 is great, some good - and some well - everyone has their bad days. I reserve judegement

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[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Garibalding:
I do trust Glen?s opinions and that makes me worry for the end result.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, it's also a matter of taste... we all have different feelings about how much importance various details play in over all picture. For some, good cinematagraphy may make it easier to tolerate plot weaknesses or mediocre acting.

And a lot of people who I consider of resonable intelligence and taste can't stand B5's first season, something I can only respectfully disagree with. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>But, the only thing that I would like to know is?how does ?Legend of the Rangers? stack up against ?The Gathering??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They probaly share an real sense of unrefinement, since they were both made by freshly assembled production teams. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>(a real piss poor pilot when compared to the overall series)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It's worth noting that, at the time, jms was really exited about that one too. I think of it as him seeing his child take it's first steps.

I still think I'll enjoy the movie, though I'm not expecting Messages From Earth, Point of No Return and Severed Dreams all rolled into one.


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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

[This message has been edited by drakh (edited October 22, 2001).]

 

[drakh]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by taichidave:
It's a rare pilot indeed that feels truly refined. That kind of refinement comes with time, learning what works and what doesn't in the context of a group of actors and the story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Though a network level budget certainly helps...



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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Drakh,

You're definitely spot on with how sci-fi fans can overlook, forgive or trade off when a series has bad acting, special effects or other problems. So it does boil down to taste and, maybe, I should have clarified that back when Babylon 5 was airing I found myself agreeing with Glen quite a bit, thus made me cringe when I heard his assessment. But, it’s definitely not my opinion since I don’t believe in just writing it off on one reviewers notice plus I have no clue what Glen’s sensibilities are today versus 3 or 4 years ago. I may disagree with him entirely. All I hope is…that JMS and the cast get a chance to “wow” us like the original did.

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Michael Garibalding: For starters, I don't know you, therefore I don't trust you.

 

[BlackStar]

Well, I for one don't give a rat's arse what these folks say.

It's their opinion. Let them have it. Some will like the movie, some will love it, some will hate it. Big deal. That's the way things work.

I'm going to wait until January, watch the movie, form my own opinion, and agree or disagree with these people.

It's too early to argue if they are right or wrong, unless of course you have seen the movie and would like to mail me a copy.

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"There's Snow White and the Seven Narns, Who's Your Little Pak'ma'ra, others..."
- Captain Matthew Gideon, The Needs of Earth
Rising Star

 

[Kribu]

As I've said before, I will wait until I've seen it myself before I can form any sort of opinion.

However, I do agree with those who have said that it doesn't necessarily take a perfect, brilliant pilot to make a great series.

Especially in the case of B5... to be honest, I haven't cared too much for any of the B5 movies, at least not compared with the series. ItB was the best of the bunch - it was enjoyable but to me it didn't compare to some of the truly wonderful episodes of seasons 2, 3, 4 or even 5. (Which is partly why I personally would never try to hook a non-fan by showing her/him ItB.)

Perhaps JMS just does better with regular episodes than movies.

What I'm hoping though is that the movie - even, even if it sucks as bad as the people who have seen it are claiming (and I'm sure there are at least some things there to be enjoyed!) - will get good ratings. Good enough for SciFi to give the go-ahead to a series.

Even if the pilot isn't brilliant, there is just so much potential in both the idea for the Rangers and in the B5 universe as a whole that it would be a pity to let it go to waste. Besides, I'm completely convinced that the series would be good (well, I did like Crusade a lot as well!

).

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"It's animal magnetism. What can I say?"
- G'Kar, A Tragedy of Telepaths
Visit Kribu's Lounge - now completely ad-free!

 

[Deviot]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War-Demon:
All I got to say is post your damn reviews on your own website. You're startin to piss me off when you come here and bash B5. Everyone forms their own opinions about this sort of thing, and from what I've seen this movie looks great.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Um War-Demon everyone is entitled to come here and post there opinions (as long as posted in right forum of coarse and it is done in a mature fashion).

I beleive the post above was fine it may have disagreed with your own opinion but he did do it in amature fashion.

Tobias and Glen are entitled to there own opinions, as are everyone.

So war-Demon please remeber that this a a public forum and everyone should be made to feel welcome.


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Deviot
Lincbot@yahoo.com.au

[This message has been edited by Deviot (edited October 23, 2001).]

 

[B5_Obsessed]

It's not Glen Oliver's fault.

After Pike's review, a lot of folks went off on Coaxial and said stuff to the effect of "Glen would've never done that", thereby implying a blanket endorsement of Rangers on his part.

It was therefore his right to come here and clarify his feelings about the movie. We brought him into this, and he had to reply. I don't think he's happy about what he wrote at all.

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"When something we value is destroyed, we rebuild it. If it's destroyed again we rebuild it again. And again, and again, and again. Until it stays. "
~Jeffrey Sinclair