EpDis: The Deconstruction Of Falling Stars

[Lennier's Tears]

The impression I got wasn't just that Earth was "sent back to the stone age" by a nuclear war but that the war itself created a reaction against technology and outside influence that's taken along time to fall away.

You could argue as well that we don't know that nobody did anything to help, maybe they did and maybe the non xenophobic population that survived moved off world with those who remained being from Daniels side thus unwilling to accept help or leave.

Yes, you're quite right. There is indeed apparently a strong anti-technology and anti-alien sentiment involved in the "great burn", and a great many people apparently really wanted to live like that. It's also true that we simply don't know what is going on with the population of Earth who do NOT feel that way. Maybe they are indeed elsewhere, leaving the rest of Earth alone to do their isolationist thing. And maybe there are some Rangers there to VERY gently guide those people back to interstellar travel and politics. I'd have to wonder WHY, though. And, after 500 years anti-technology sentiment would have turned into total ignorance. There could be quite a few generations in those 500 years, depending on just how anti-technology those people are, and whether they reject all medical science and thus significantly reduce the average lifespan ...

In all, there isn't enough information for me to claim that it is unrealistic, and anything I say could be refuted by a "well, maybe ...", and that would be as valid a theory as any. The only truth is that that bit just really doesn't work for me. I don't have to love every single scene in every single episode for this to be my favorite show

 

[Mororless]

Idea's can pass down the generations of course. I think its notable that the Rangers are looking to reintroduce the alliance via religion as you could probably make the case that a lot of the xenophobic/anti tech movements motivation came from existing religions as it does today.

 

[Lennier's Tears]

Idea's can pass down the generations of course.

Absolutely. It seems to me that in this situation, no one on Earth is aware of their past, before the Great Burn. Whatever it was that that first generation was so very against, no one remembers it existed, so what exactly is their hatred focused on? Also it doesn't seem like 100% of the later generations would be on board with these ideas.

When I posted to this thread last week I had just watched this episode, but my memory of it is already a bit vague now. I might be making things up!

I THINK that what we're seeing in that segment is some kind of anti-technology sentiment. But, even if they had gone back to making stone tools, that's still, you know, technology. Perhaps they just went back to a "pre-industrial" type of society, but the contents of that room we see in the segment don't look all that pre-industrial to me. Are they pre-burn antiques? If so, that's some excellent preservation, and it would make me wonder what else was acceptable to keep from the pre-burn days.There's that talk about gasoline engines. Does that mean they're already using steam engines, or are they skipping that whole thing?

Anyway

 

[Mororless]

I think its clear that they know of a more advanced history prior to the great burn, there shown as having found buried technology and 500 years isn't long enough for all outward signs of the previous society to have vanished even after a nuclear war. That would be a pretty strong link for an anti tech/anti alien sentiment to carry on

 

[Lennier's Tears]

I almost want to go watch this episode again because it bothers me that I can't remember. As it is, I probably shouldn't be commenting too much on a thing I can't properly remember, but obviously I'm going to anyway

You're right about the buried technology. I do remember the bit about making the gas can look sufficiently old. Amazing that it kept so long!

I'm extremely curious about the climate and available resources on the planet, or in this particular spot where Brother Whatshisname lives. We don't know how the Great Burn affected climate, and how it has evolved over the past 500 years. But, judging from the stuff in that room, they either have immediate access to abundant resources and highly specialized labor, or they have access to some vast trade network.

I think I've figured out what my main issue with that bit is. I like my sci-fi with a very solid background, where everything in the universe makes sense and connects properly. That's true for Babylon 5 in general. But this bit is just this tiny little glimpse into a future we don't know anything about other than what we see in these 10 minutes or however long it is. It just leaves me with too many questions and I can't stand it. That's not to say that that isn't a perfectly valid storytelling style. Just that I, personally, like SOME of my questions answered

 

[Farscape One]

I think it is completely probable that it took 500 years for Earth to get back to just a gasoline engine.

The Dark Ages of our own history, which was a time when science and technology were regarded as evil, lasted about 800 years. With Ranger and outside help, shaving 300 years off what we experienced is pretty reasonable.

 

[Mororless]

Without wanting to come across to Waldemar Januszczak the Dark Ages weren't actually THAT dark but again I think the episode presents a big issue being that much of the population don't actually want to return to a high tech lifestyle blaming it on previous events.

 

[Springer]

Maybe the Dark Ages weren't that dark, but they were still pretty miserable for most people. What was the average life expectancy? The standard of living? While I imagine there might be a reaction to some types of technology, such as spacecraft or weapons, would people seriously opt to live in conditions without things like medicine, or the ability to grow enough food, when they know there's an alternative?

 

[Talvitar]

While I recognize that this episode has its merits - the whole concept is quite good - there was too much for me NOT to like.

Most often, I simply don't like any "20 years later" kind of epilogues. Hated the 19-years-later epilogue in Harry Potter. Either tell the whole story, or don't. Not these glimpses, especially when they are, for the most part, depressing and nauseating. Yes, my reaction to the 100-yrs-later scene was quite strong. I felt physically nauseated. (The Delenn part was excellent, though. The lady has authority, she silenced those selfrighteous "historians" with A Look. Go Delenn!!)

And even though, in the 500 yrs story, the Garibaldi scene was highly satisfactory (yesssssss, Garibaldi!!), again I felt nausea. Because I can see that kind of thing happening. History can be distorted, it can be retold. There's really nothing *that* fictional about the scene, except for the technological means of distortion.

I liked the monk story. Yes, it left a bunch of questions unanswered. I wondered what happened to all other humans or Earth's old allies but someone in this thread already said that probably Mars and other colonies + other allies were sick and tired of Earth making a deliberate mess of itself. Rangers were helping in any case so Earth wasn't totally abandoned to its own devices. I can totally believe that there was still a lot of anti-technology feeling. It's not rational, but look at human history: we as a species are not known to be 100% rational.

However, unanswered questions aside, I just liked the two monks and the 'revelation' that the other one was actually a Ranger. That 1000-yrs-story was actually the only one I thoroughly enjoyed. I'm not usually one to want "side series" to fill any gaps in the "original" storyline but this makes an exception: I would totally watch a series concentrating on the Great Burn + Next 700 years...

I think I'm the exception here: I didn't really care for the million-yrs-later scene. Ok, the encounter suit was kind of cool but other than that, meh.

The end of season 4 feels like the end of the whole series. On the other hand, the series could easily have gone on for a several seasons more. There's simply so much stuff that could be handled indepth! What can be done in one sorry season?
Meh. I don't feel eager to start the 5th season. There's no Ivanova. No Marcus. There's bad stuff coming, right? Teep war, the drakh, right?
I really liked the Shadow story line, it was thrilling, exciting, and rather intelligent. Earth war was ok, better than I remembered.
Let's see.

 

[Lord Garth]

This is a weird one. It starts off looking like a regular episode. Sheridan and Delenn are married. Then it goes into some huge disorientation.

It's 2262, when the fifth season takes place. It's disorienting because I feel like I've been randomly thrown right into the middle of it. Lochley is Captain of Babylon 5 but we don't see her, she's only mentioned. And it sounds like President Sheridan has to make tough decision regarding something. I don't want to know. I'll find out really soon anyway. And there are some talking heads arguing with each other about their own spins on Sheridan. It reminds me of Crossfire. I can't stand Crossfire. They don't talk to each other; they talk past each other. One loudmouth who tries to pretend he isn't a loudmouth won't even give Sheridan a chance. Screw that guy. He must've loved Clark.

After that, it jumps to 2362. We have some academics debating Sheridan, Delenn, and the others and being deconstructionist about it. "Yeah, but were they really as great as people say?" Doubt everything, question everything, be a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian. "How can Delenn even still be alive?" The real surprise was when she showed up. Which was great. Even better was Delenn putting one of them in his place.

Then it jumps to 2762. Earth was to break away from the Interstellar Alliance, and a Civil War is forming. Historical Revisionists want to use holographic versions of Sheridan, Delenn, Franklin, and Garibaldi doing whatever these Revisionists want them to do in order to make Sheridan and company look bad. My immediate takeaway from this is that one day, propagandists IRL will try to use holograms to record fraudulent historical events. This might even happen during my lifetime. So that's very concerning. My other takeaway is that Evil Sheridan, after he's reprogrammed, reminds me of Evil Janeway in Star Trek: Voyager's "Living Witness". But the real highlight was Holo-Garibaldi leaking Earth's intentions to the Alliance before he's able be reprogrammed. Then war starts and...

... it jumps to 3262. After the Burn. Right so... I think Babylon 5 handled it way better than Star Trek: Discovery. First off, great actually realizing what Albert Einstein once said, "I don't know how World War III will be fought but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Earth is just beginning to recover from a new version of the Dark Ages. They think they can make an automobile! That's where they are! I'm so glad another war is depicted as being as disastrous as it should always be thought of as. Way better than a child's scream. More importantly, Earth will recover but it will take a long time. Longer than three years! *caugh*Discovery*caugh*

Then we see Humanity's Ultimate Fate as the episode jumps to a million years into the future. Everyone leaves for New Earth before Earth becomes uninhabitable. Which is the ultimate purpose of Space Travel. Exploration is a purpose, but allowing us to survive Earth is the purpose. I share JMS's opinion about this. Something I like to bring up whenever I have a friend occasionally tell me that space travel is a waste of money.

The button on the episode is Sheridan and Delenn talking about if they'll even be remembered after they're gone. The End. They could've ended the episode a million years in the future but bringing it back to the series' present is a good way to bring us back to where the series really is, as it moves into the fifth season.

Was this episode necessary? Yes and No. In terms of the fourth season, it looks like the add-on it is. In terms of the Bigger Picture, on the other hand, it's good to know where things ultimately end up. Not my favorite episode, but it did bring a lot to the table, and I appreciate the glimpses into what's ahead. Short-term, long-term, and insanely long-term. I give it a B.

 

[Springer]

Then we see Humanity's Ultimate Fate as the episode jumps to a million years into the future. Everyone leaves for New Earth before Earth becomes uninhabitable. Which is the ultimate purpose of Space Travel. Exploration is a purpose, but allowing us to survive Earth is the purpose. I share JMS's opinion about this. Something I like to bring up whenever I have a friend occasionally tell me that space travel is a waste of money.

Did you notice the Ranger emblem on the side of future man's ship? It suggests that humans and Minbari are still unified a million years into the future (when Jason Ironheart said he would see them again).

New Earth is meant to be the Vorlon homeworld according to JMS (at some point Lyta alluded to the Vorlon homeworld being off limits to humans for a million years, I can't remember which episode she said that. Was it Thirdspace?).

In this episode, it's mentioned that the Sun is being destabilised, someone is weaponising jump points, opening them inside the Sun presumably to dump in extra mass and cause it to go supernova. In reality our Sun won't go supernova, and we've got another billion years left of Earth being habitable before the Sun grows too warm, causing our oceans to evaporate. In about 5 billion years the Sun will run out of hydrogen and turn first into a red giant and then a white dwarf surrounded by a brief planetary nebula. So as long as we look after Earth, we don't actually have to go anywhere for a long time. Of course, we can still explore what's out there.

 

[LateArrival]

In this episode, it's mentioned that the Sun is being destabilised, someone is weaponising jump points, opening them inside the Sun presumably to dump in extra mass and cause it to go supernova. In reality our Sun won't go supernova, and we've got another billion years left of Earth being habitable before the Sun grows too warm, causing our oceans to evaporate. In about 5 billion years the Sun will run out of hydrogen and turn first into a red giant and then a white dwarf surrounded by a brief planetary nebula. So as long as we look after Earth, we don't actually have to go anywhere for a long time. Of course, we can still explore what's out there.

Which ties in to the "first" filmed episode - season 1 episode 4 - Infection.
At the end of the episode, Sinclair says:
"Whether it happens in 100 years, or 1,000 years or a
million years eventually our sun will grow cold and go out."
"all of this... was for nothing... unless we go to the stars."

Regarding any feeling of disorientation... going from memory here...
- Sleeping in Light was filmed as the "last" episode of season 4 but became the "last" episode of season 5.
- Deconstruction was filmed as the "first" episode of season 5 but became the "last" episode of season 4.
- No Compromises was filmed as the "second" episode of Season 5 but became the "first" for season 5.
- First-ist draft of Deconstruction had Ivanova in the opening scene, but her lines were switched to Garibaldi.

 

[Springer]

Which ties in to the "first" filmed episode - season 1 episode 4 - Infection.
At the end of the episode, Sinclair says:
"Whether it happens in 100 years, or 1,000 years or a
million years eventually our sun will grow cold and go out."
"all of this... was for nothing... unless we go to the stars."

Sinclair was at least three orders of magnitude out in his estimate of the timeline! But that is a great speech though lately I've come to disagree with the sentiment a bit, when in the past I used to espouse it.

- First-ist draft of Deconstruction had Ivanova in the opening scene, but her lines were switched to Garibaldi.

Huh, I didn't realise the first draft was written with Ivanova in the opening scene. I'll have to dig out my script books now, I presume it's in there?

 

[Looney]

I give it a B.

I disagree!

I do recall that when I first saw the episode I found it disorienting. I've also imagined how it would mess with things if you put it chronologically after Sleeping in Light. I think I did do a re-watch once where I watched it just before watching Sleeping in Light.

I think in the context of the time it was made it is an amazing episode idea. I can't say it is my favorite Babylon 5 idea, but I can say it was an absolutely amazing idea. Also when I look at the year it was released I am floored by how it seems so ahead of those times. I think it was another episode that established a precedent for these types of episodes we see in shows currently, aka an episode you never see coming.

On June 9TH, 1997 after watching FACE OF THE ENEMY, S4.17 there is no chance I expected the next episode would be a bottle episode. There is no way I would have predicted the ever climbing tension of Season 4 was going to go into an intense character driven enclosed episode like INTERSECTIONS IN REAL TIME, S4.18. It is an absolutely brilliant twist I never saw coming. In our current time I expect to see this on almost every series I watch. The plot is carrying you along and then BAM there is an episode late in the season that steps off the rails, so to speak. After FACE OF THE ENEMY, S4.17 one would obviously expect the upcoming episode to be about Sheridan's imprisonment. BUT as the Season had been going one might predict that the upcoming episode would have an "A" PLOT (Imprisonment), a "B" PLOT (Planning The Escape), and even "C" PLOT (Interpersonal relationship turmoil.) But Nope! JMS ALL BRILLIANT "A" PLOT WITH TOP NOTCH ACTING DRIVING THE DRAMA. LOVE IT!

 

[LateArrival]

Huh, I didn't realise the first draft was written with Ivanova in the opening scene. I'll have to dig out my script books now, I presume it's in there?

Am a bit rusty on opening lines from Deconstruction, but I believe "Ivanova" only appeared in the first draft and her line/s were switched to Garibaldi for later revisions.