Enterprise: "Countdown"

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

PsionTen, I can tune in for 2 to 3 seasons and tell whether or not it's the same old schtick...I know if it's the standard Berman fair or something fresh and new. I always give each show at least two full seasons since I know that it takes time sometimes to find ground. When I'm completely let down (as I have been repeatedly), I stop watching, but keep my ears open to people's reviews and opinions on the show. If I hear some good things, I'll give it another try...which I did in this case. Unfortunately it doesn't take brain surgery to tune in and be able to tell whether anything has really changed or not. I can usually tell with Trek within an ep or two, though I usually give it more than that if possible. I really do try to open my mind each time...letting my hopes get up that it's really better, it's really gotten good. Sadly, everytime, I'm fairly quickly hit in the face with the same, tired rhetoric, writing, acting, characters and technobabble. I do not watch religiously, but when I do come back to try to give it a chance I do try to watch with an open mind. I watched the end of DS9 that way and while I thought it had some interesting moments, it was boring, talkie, and drole...by the end I just didn't give a shit about what happened to these people...same with the Voyager cast and Ent. And if I don't care about or like the characters, then something's wrong.

I can admit when there is a good and interesting ep...Voyager had some, DS9 had some (though it was totally eclipsed by B5), even Enterprise has had some decent moments. My problem is this...if ENT. weren't set in the Trek universe, if it were an original show, then it's really not half bad, though the characters really need work. As far as SF goes it's good, decent quality SF. It just doesn't fit the Trek universe very well and even then still needs some work. I don't support SF just for the sake of SF, I expect it to entertain, challenge, excite and move me. Trek rarely really does that and constantly contradicts itself and its universe.

If you love it...great...more power to ya...but I've stated my Trek watching habits and I think I have enough intellect to be able to tell if it's working or not within the framework I've laid out. Hell, I give Trek more chances and opportunities than most TV shows are given each season.

Firefly hooked me right off, great characters, great story, great writing. Crusade, B5, X-Files, SG-1 all did the same. I've given Trek tons more chances to win me than I gave most of those shows in the beginning and yet all it does is still frustrate and upset me, since it continues to undermine and destroy a universe that I do love and did fall for quickly under TOS and TNG.

Your logic is flawed...I know what's good and not...and I've tried and tried to give Berman and Trek chance after chance...only because I love the Trek universe. It does not necessarily follow that I love what Berman and Co. have done to it though, even though I still continue to give him chances to prove me wrong. And I really do watch with an open mind, hoping it's good.

But as was said before in this thread, something is "off." The spirit of Trek has died, the passion and vision have faded...and I blame the man in charge. That's a gut feeling and reaction. Sorry if you don't agree...which is where I keep trying to leave it.

CE

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

For someone who was leaving this thread, you seem to be still around CE.

Thanks GKE.. I'm glad I had someone neutral say that. Because I don't think I'm a Berman follower.

I think Enterprise lost steam within about two episodes of its premiere. I stopped watching for the latter half of season one.

I think the more creative people are the likes of Ira Behr in DS9. And I think Manny Coto is the driving force behind what is good in Enterprise this year... and his show Odyssey 5 damn well ruled.

But by the nature of what you say, CE< you drive me to defend Berman and Braga. I just take real exception at your blanket statements that a) they've driven the franchise down; b) ratings are down because of this; and c) they are going out of their way to destroy Trek.

You show fundamental lack of knowledge (or care to ignore at least) many things that related to the production process, the move from syndication to network, the constant TV viewership errosion of TV in general and more. You also tilt things in saying they've done bad, when their influence through Trek is wide and not always quantifiable.

I think you're like me with Bush actually. That if Bush or Berman actually did something very good, you'd have a hard time even acknowledging it becuase you've entrenched yourself so much in hating that person.

But really, you're after the days of TOS, that's obvious. But hey, it's gone. It ain't coming back. I don't think that magic can ever come back because eveyone is more jaded to TV, there's not really much magic anymore, there's plenty of sci-fi choices... Trek isn't special. But there aren't really any "special" sci-fi shows left, that have a massive, dedicated following. TOS was also a time when you could just put a black woman on the bridge and that was massive. Again, what can be done now? There's nothing that can really say a lot in a simple statement. Even if they got off their asses and had a gay character, it wouldn't add a whole lot, or say a whole lot.

But if you've been not liking Trek since season four TNG, that's not a whole lot of Trek you have liked. I mean, that's 1991! Man, 13 years later and you're longing for that time and still watching it at times?

The thing is, with the exception of those first few years of Berman's work, you don't like anything else Berman has done.

I would submit to you, that with 7 seasons collectively you do like, and 20 seasons you don't like, that you just don't like how Trek is now.

I stopped watching SG-1. I disliked Buffy towards the end, but just saw it out. You can give in on shows you know.

I won't be sitting there in 13 years time, sayingsomething isn't as good as it used to be. I think you're holding on to some obsession here. I think you long for days that can never come back, and wouldn't come back even if Gene were here. This isn't Gene's baby anymore. He had some good ideas at the time, but the large part of Trek -- for good or bad -- has been under Berman's control. Gene was involved with one -- count that -- one film largely. There aer so many forces within Trek, it's been mammoth. I think so sum this up as Berman vs Gene is just daft.

Every recent Trek show has been pretty different. I wouldn't say massively so at times, but hey look at CSI. Berman has shown he doesn't always guide the story, that others take the helm as it were. Gene is like this icon. He was a boozer, a womaniser, he cheated people out of money... but he did some good stuff like put a black woman on the bridge and he's some hero for ever more.

I think it's just time for some home truths. What is Trek? Is it this few years that Gene did? Or is is all the other years that have been done by a vast array of people, taking it through different decades?

 

[PsionTen]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I stop watching, but keep my ears open to people's reviews and opinions on the show.

Yeah, but that's not exactly the same thing as watching it with your own two eyes. You're still making judgments on something that you've never seen.

Unfortunately it doesn't take brain surgery to tune in and be able to tell whether anything has really changed or not

No, all it takes is turning the channel to a UPN affiliate on Wed. night.

Your logic is flawed...I know what's good and not...

I'm sure you do know, once you actually watch it.

It does not necessarily follow that I love what Berman and Co. have done to it though, even though I still continue to give him chances to prove me wrong.

I never said that you loved what they did, only that you helped enable them.

 

[Mike G]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

As for tech...some things I can accept, some I have problems with...like phasers when we know in Pike's time that they were still using Lasers.

Well, they are actually called Phase Cannons and Phase Pistols...

However, the first contact with the Klingons did not occur until 2218, some 47 years later.

I'm sure it says that somewhere, but I happen to be a big Star Trek fan, and have never herd that particular fact before. When they wrote the pilot, and came up with an entertaining story that involved Klingons, why shouldn't they have used it? If I don't see a problem with continuity, then I doubt most people will. That is how I feel with all continuity issues really. If it makes a good story without breaking any major rules set before, then go for it. Only one time I can think of on Enterprise when I think they crossed this line. (The Borg episode)

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Mike, I don't think they really have been comitting continuity errors though.

I do agree that sometimes it doesn't matter. All Treks have done it a bit until now. When you get to 600% episodes it's near impossible to hold continuity together on that lot.

For the most part they do though.

As to the Borg, I think that fit continuity... I think they were really skating around it though. I think there's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, so to speak.

But I think they're doing well in all, for creating the basis of what becomes the Federation.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Fine...I apologize if I personally insulted anyone...but I do not apologize for my opinions and theories, especially considering that I am by no means alone in them.

Considering that millions of fans, major magazines, and critics have called for Berman to step down or be replaced, I can only conclude that a lot of people, and people educated in such matters, also blame him and Braga for the trouble (and yes it is in serious trouble) Trek is in, not to mention the lackluster nature of the series'.

I will not argue with you folks, since arguing seems to be all you want to do; well, that and attack people who disagree with you rather than debate them.

This defensiveness is something I've noticed in die-hard Trek fans who refuse to back away and see the universe as it really is.

If, in fact, you like Trek and what's happened to it, as I've said before, that is fine...it is your right. It is also my right to feel as I do and not be attacked personally for it. When my facts were wrong, I admitted it and corrected my previous statement.

Antony, the only reason I did return to post in here is because, once again, my person was attacked and I will defend that.

As for watching Trek, because Trek is something that I grew up loving and was inspired by, I have given Trek more chances than I would give any other TV show or film...and repeatedly it has left me disallusioned, upset, and saddened for its lack of direction, lack of passion and vision, and lack of knowledge of its own self any longer. Unfortunately, though I do still love Trek and see such high potential in its universe that is not being explored, I feel the number of chances I'm willing to give it have pretty much come to an end. I do not long for the days of TOS to return exactly as it was and did not say what you seem to think I was saying about TNG. However, that is how you choose to misinterpret my words. I said that I could start to see problems as early as S4, the overt use of technobabble, that more and more evident use of over done melodrama, and higher number of pot-boilers that just weren't very interesting stories.

Quite frankly, I hadn't seen TNG for some time, and had remembered S4 and S5 as being some of the best of the series...until I sat and watched the whole season through and was actually shocked at the number of so-so episodes.

Don't get me wrong, there were some great eps that season as well, but I began to notice the beginnings of what has gone wrong with Trek IMHO (and many others as well).

You all seem to conclude that because I blame B&B for this bad or rather lack of real direction in Trek that by default I must think that Roddenberry was god or something. By no means should you conclude that. Gene had his problems and ideas that were terrible for Trek. But there was a feeling, a spirit in Trek that lived as long as he did. After his death, somehow that light went out...regardless of any control he had.

Two of the greatest influences on Trek to me were Nicholas Meyer and Leonard Nimoy. Had Nimoy been allowed to take over GENERATIONS as he wanted to and punch up the script and direct, then it would've been a one-thousand times better film and Kirk's death would've moved me more and been a lot more meaningful.

There is no denying that Berman has issues with the original cast and their time. There is no denying that both B&B have at time belittled and even insulted fans. There is no denying that Trek's fanbase has dwindled dramatically over the last 10 or so years (I don't know where you're getting the ratings info from Antony when you state that overall TV ratings have slumped -- I work in TV remember? They're still just as strong....just not for Trek.)

Even the TNG cast has had clashed with Berman and do not wish to return.

If you like it, great...but I have a right to voice my thoughts and feelings as well, without being personally attacked for those feelings. As for the bottom line on blaming B&B (and remember I am in no way alone in my placing of this blame): B&B are over all the Executive Producers and lords of the Trek universe, so yes, when it becomes what it has, looses millions of fans, drops horribly in the ratings, becomes lackluster, directionless, empty and without heart and fire, then I will blame the people in charge that are making the decisions that are causing these problems. Because ultimately the responsibility falls into their lap.

I do not wish to argue and you can all jump me again to tomorrow...I've said my piece and now am at peace.

And now, I will leave. On that you can rest assured.

Good day gentlemen, and peace to all.

CE

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Two of the greatest influences on Trek to me were Nicholas Meyer and Leonard Nimoy. Had Nimoy been allowed to take over GENERATIONS as he wanted to and punch up the script and direct, then it would've been a one-thousand times better film and Kirk's death would've moved me more and been a lot more meaningful.

This is interesting, I didn't know this. Kirk's death is basically totally useless. I was surprised they would do that when many, many other options had to be available.

And anyone who can make Malcolm McDowell's part boring... uh...

I mean, that just takes ... "talent".

(Not a fan of that movie, as you can tell.)

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

When did they belittle fans? This is my point I keep making, you make statements yet don't back them up.

Some of what you're saying isn't off the mark. Braga has some very "specific" thoughts about many things that I am privy too. He's not that great IMHO. Berman I don't think is as bad a you make out... but anyway... a lot is conjecture remember.

TV viewership is down quite a bit compared to a few years back. Do remember there was syndication and four networks. Now UPN is around, there's tonnes of cable channels and more importantly there is sci-fi competition.

TNG was alone in the sci-fi world. X-Files was its first major competition, and I remember the sci-fi mags just abandoning Trek in droves.

Now there is saturation of sci-fi. That is a major, major difference and to ignore it is foolish.

I think a more telling indication of bad ratings is how much Enterprise has declined since its start, which has been quite significant.

 

[Recoil]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

This is interesting, I didn't know this. Kirk's death is basically totally useless. I was surprised they would do that when many, many other options had to be available.

Kirk's death was VERY far from useless, although I think the movie as a whole was very weak.

Think about it a second. Kirk died heroically TWICE in that movie. First, saving the Enterprise B (where history initially recorded his death).

His second "recorded" death was on Veridan III and it was very far from useless. Remember, Picard FAILED to stop Dr Saurian. He tried, but Saurian did launch his probe, which destroyed the sun. The sun then wiped our Veridian II --- a planet with 4 billion people --- as well as killing the entire Enterprise crew who was crash landed on Veridian III.

If not for Kirk, that movie would have ended there. But because Kirk came back with Picard, with Kirk's help, Picard was able to save both the planet and the Enterprise's crew.

---

The useless part of the story and the reason I never liked the movie, was because it had a complete disregard for a lot of the "Kirk" background stories about how he believed he would die, and other points brought up in the first 6 TOS movies (which were far more successful). This is not the first time Berman and company showed a complete disregard for TOS and it wont be the last I am sure. He seems to think it is so inferior but forgets that without it, he wouldn't have had a job the last 15 years.

That is why I really liked the books that came out after the movie, done by Shatner as well as the 2 "Trek Authorities" Judith and Garfield Reeves Stevens. They brought Kirk back in a very plausible plot, and DID address all of the items brought up in the TOS Trek movies. Not to mention they were both very good trilogies (and the third trilogy is good so far, but not as good as the prior 2 imo). I liked them all because they kept Kirk in the TNG timeframe, but brought back MANY old TOS stories and plotlines that were also brought up again in the TNG series...and built on them. The sort of thing Trek fans really wanted. Roddenberry didn't put that stuff in both series for his health, they MEANT something to them, and it took Shatner and the other authors to do it...cause Berman and company don't touch that stuff....they just keep putting out worse and worse movies and series.

I truly wish Generations would have been done by Nimoy and his group. It would have been a drastically different movie and FAR FAR superior. IMO Generations was the begining of the decline of Trek. Thank GOD that "First Contact" was made. If not for that movie, the TNG cast would be 0-4. As it is, their big screen track record is nothing compared to TOS and its too bad, because the potential and fan base was there, just Berman and company can't deliver the good stories or what people would like to see...

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Antony,

If I could find the articles, I would gladly do so. They are at best ten or so years old and were in print, not online. I remember clearly about the time FIRST CONTACT came out I believe, an interview done with BB where he was talking about basing a film on one episode and how you "just can't do that." (Funny since STII did just that.) He was talking about continuity and history and made a comment to the effect that the fans are stupid and wouldn't notice such things. I remember this clearly because at the time I was still in touch with some of my Trek fan club friends here. There was a literal public outcry at the time to have him fired for such comments. I clearly remember a massive write-in campaign for Paramount to remove him from Trek. Berman stood behind him and backed him up. I recall that this was the beginning of major fan dislike of Berman do to his stance on the matter. At one time, Braga was called (I can't recall which magazine it was back then) "the most hated writer in Star Trek history."

Some time after that, I do recall Berman making comments in interviews to the effect that he didn't feel he needed to be tied to past events, he would do what he wanted whether it gelled with Trek continuity or not. I, again cannot tell you the source as it was years ago, and in print. I do recall a lot of fan outcry over these comments as well. Fans stating that if he didn't want to honor Trek's history, then he should leave Trek and go make up his own show. I know that Sci-Fi magazine (about the time SW:TPM came out) ran an article calling for Berman and Braga to step down for what they were doing to Trek. This was during the run of Voyager. I also remember that in this article they listed their recommendations for replacements and that they mentioned again Braga's previous statements and Berman's. I know that there has been massive hate mail sent to Paramount calling for B&B to be replaced.

I wish I could site sources but a lot of this was a while ago and I really cannot recall where all I read these articles. I also know that I read articles in EW and elsewhere calling for Berman's resignation. I know I've read articles in EW and elsewhere talking about the TNG cast's issues with Berman and that Stewart and Spiner have both gone over his head on films. I know that most of the casts of other shows have not been outspoken supporters of them. I know that Terry Farrell had some rather rough things to say about them when she left DS9. I know that websites have sprung up (one I remember was called "Save Trek") that call for B&B to be fired and Trek placed under new management.

You want sources, well I wish to GOD I could give you some. You can believe me or not that I've read these articles and know from whence I speak. Personally, I have way too much to do to go on some pilgramage to try to find them all for you...I simply don't have the time in my day.

To top all of this off, I know from my own eyes and ears that Trek has changed since at the least starting in S6 of TNG, starting a downward spiral into technobabble endings and overt melodrama with plain, lackluster characters that I, and everyone else I talk to who once loved Trek, couldn't give a shit about. It has become disrespectful of its own history and continuity due to lazy writing and has lost its sense of itself...its fire, its passion....hell, it's even lost its sense of humor. (What humor there is is horridly done and forced which = not funny.)

I don't need some magazine or anything to tell me what my own eyes see, and what my own ears hear in the voices of all the fans I know. Their anger is palpable, their frustration is apparent. You can turn a blind eye to it, but it is still there. You may not hear them much in the circles where you travel, because they've left those circles. B&B have been to Trek what Bush has been to the US and the world...dividers. Most Trek fans have become dis-enfranchised and no longer speak in the places a die-harder my hear. Those still loyal to Trek are newer fans for the most part or die-harders that refuse to give up, and will make excuses no matter what. They have come up in the technobabble era or wear blinders.

You're right, there is more SF out there now. And people are choosing the other shows instead of Trek. Why? Because those shows are more interesting, better written, better characters that people adore, less techno-crap and more story. I've talked to people on the fan sites of other shows that have long since abandoned Trek...a lot of them...and turned to other shows to find better characters and more compelling stories, with less melodrama and poor writing (when I say poor writing I don't mean in the vein of LEXX or something...I just mean lazy writing, boring characters, whining, less reliance on the technology and more on the characters (something I did agree with Gene on that Trek as really lost), and vision and a since of direction and of itself). Shows that have stayed true to history and threads. They got tired of the same old fair and boredom and whining that Trek gave them.

I do not want or need your approval to have the issues I have...nor do I hate you for your opinions on the matter. I know what I've read and seen. The information is out there, if anyone really wanted to find it.

Ultimately, I see two names who are in charge of Trek and have been consistant throughout Trek's downfall, Berman and Braga. They are in charge, the buck stops with them. They are therefore to blame.

ENTERPRISE has been nothing short of one missed opportunity after another. Voyager was lackluster and boring. DS9 was talkie, slow, plodding and over the top and lacked the focus and direction and sense of itself that B5 had. TNG, around fourth season (which I just recently realized and which is the first season where Gene had absolutely no control any longer thus leaving Berman on his own and in charge) started becoming lost in overdone melodrama and constant and bad overuse of technobabble, techno endings, and the Trek reset button. Yes, there have been some moments where Trek has continued to shine through the darkness surrounding it. Sadly, for me, those moments only go to enforce the clear reality that it could be so much more than it is.

I want Trek to shine, Antony...I really do. But let's face it, B&B are going to have to go in order for it to shine once more. The dis-enfranchised fans will not come back as long as they are in charge. The feel and passion will not return as long as they are in charge.

You can make excuses, ignore, and sidetrack all you want; but in the end Trek is still suffering needlessly due to their micro-managing, control oriented, unimaginative, retelling the same story over and over style.

I would be the first to jump for joy and do a happy dance if Trek were to shine again...even if they were in charge still. But every time I give them another chance (and they have been numerous) I come back to find the same old schtick...nothing is better really, nothing is different, and the die-hard Trekkers are occasionally thrown the "Berman carrot" to appease them.

I will not stand for "Berman carrots" any longer. I can still see such glorious potential and vision in that universe. I don't for one second think that it's too hard to stay true to continuity and history. To loose the past, is to destroy the future.

We shall simply have to disagree here.

Hypatia,

Yes, GENERATIONS could've been such a great film! Kirk's death could've had real meaning and moved the audience. Unfortunately, that film is so indicative of what Trek has become: one missed opportunity after another. And it's no one other than B&B who are calling the shots that have turned it into that sad reflection of what it once was and still could be again.

Even Ron Moore had some not so nice things to say about Berman in a recent interview after he took over BG.

Sad. Anyway...Nimoy walked out on Berman and said, "No thank you." I've tried to walk out on something that was once dear and fun to me...it's hard to leave behind something you love...but sometimes, it's necessary.

CE

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

The useless part of the story and the reason I never liked the movie, was because it had a complete disregard for a lot of the "Kirk" background stories about how he believed he would die, and other points brought up in the first 6 TOS movies (which were far more successful).

He said he'd die alone, that really doesn't mean he would though. I really liked it that he wasn't alone, I felt it was a nice contradiction.

 

[haze]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

And now, I will leave. On that you can rest assured.

For someone who was leaving, you sure have a lot more to say...

He was talking about continuity and history and made a comment to the effect that the fans are stupid and wouldn't notice such things.

I remember something similar, but not when First Contact came out. The comment I'm thinking of was from an interview where it was revealed that the Voyager episode, "Future's End" would take the crew to 1996. A TOS episode previously established that the Eugenics Wars took place during that time, but the Voyager episode ignored this. A QUICK search on the web turned up some thoughts Braga had regarding this episode and continuity. It was q uick search, so I did not find the original interview.

I only post this to show it takes little time to do some research rather than make broad generalizations.

Braga:
“Continuity is not a pain in the ass at all. Its only a pain in the ass when it prevents us from telling a story we want to tell… [Brannon then talks about Voyager’s ‘Futures End’ two-parter which took place on Earth, at the same time as the Eugenics Wars which also occurred on Earth at the same time, according to the Star Trek timeline]… if we had paid attention to continuity and depicted the Eugenics Wars, the audience would have said “What the hell are you doing? Are we in an alternative universe?” The truth is, the people who know that reference from [TOS’s ‘Space Seed’] is quite small in the grand scheme of things.”

Relevant link: http://www.brannonbraga.com/2001/Articles/2001_october.htm

Another quote:

Braga:
"We did a show where Janeway and company went to 1996 and there were no Eugenics Wars going on in that episode. And yes, people got upset. But if we had done [that], we couldn't have had all the fun of seeing contemporary things that you and I know and appreciate and the characters relating to those things."

Relevant link: http://talk.trekweb.com/articles/2002/08/07/1028720060.html

Not saying Braga is right by any means, just posting it to add a little "fact" to a thread so full of opinion.

CE, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and I do not feel people are personally attacking you. (You were concerned with that back when you first started posting here months back and I don't think you were under attack then either) Some of the things you say in your posts sound as though they are well known facts, yet you don't back them up with sources. You are a B5/JMS fan like the rest of us and should know how much we cherish accuracy.

-Haze

 

[Recoil]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

He said he'd die alone, that really doesn't mean he would though. I really liked it that he wasn't alone, I felt it was a nice contradiction.

Yes, but to me that makes the whole big deal of that part of the TOS movies moot, something Berman made a habit of doing, and that was only one aspect. Again, in the trilogy, it EXPLAINS why Kirk had the belief that he would die alone, and how it all came into play...wrapped up nicely with a tie-in to an early TOS episode. The books about Kirk's "resurrection" did a lot of the things the movie Generations never did.

You like how it was, many don't. It is the age old thing. The movie is what Berman did, the books, and what Nimoy would have done, would have been worlds better. People can decide for themselves what is and isn't. Frankly I think Generations was one of the worst of the Trek movies. I think the Kirk Resurrection trilogy saved part of it for me. After reading his books they managed to tie a lot of points into the movie and take things farther. But that was only one part of the movie that to me didnt live up to the hype. The rest was the initial promise of a TOS meets Next Generation adventure...which obviously wasnt what we got. Those books also GIVE the fans what they wanted all along --- and frankly should have gotten --- a good adventure with the TOS crew as well as the TNG crew that tells an important story, not a historical footnote.

If not for those books I would have forgotten that Generations was even filmed, they gave me a reason to at least acknowledge it.

Now if only something could be done about "Insurrection" and "Nemesis"...

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

Damn, you're actually almost making me consider reading a Star Trek book (I love Trek, but I've never had any desire to read books based on a TV show except the B5 trilogies).

That would be weird if I put down my Faulkner and Balzac novels for Shatner.

While First Contact was the best TNG flick, I regret it was ever made. It just gave B&B too much license to screw with the Borg on Voyager and Enterprise.

 

[AntonyF]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

haze, to me that shows good comments from Braga. That sometimes rules have to be bent. Some people would deliberately have Enterprise made to look old and tacky it seems just so it makes TOS look newer. That sort of thing is daft. And much in the same way you can't follow every little bit of coninuity.

The balance of the writer is knowing when it's ride to bend the rules.

600 episodes, loads of writers... it's hard for today's Trek writers. It's not like one guy writing all episodes from five seasons.

GKE, Shatner's books are very good, IMHO. I'd recommmend them. They got worse as they got on, but were still mostly good.

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

From what I remember, Dr. Who managed many more years than Trek has without seeming to toss away so much of what it had established as its own background in the past. And that show had many writers over many years.

In a sense I knew Enterprise was not going to be a show I would consider a favorite from the pilot episode alone. Remember how un-vulcan-like the vulcans acted? Spock and Sarek (sp?) acted like vulcans. And, quite frankly, came off a lot classier for it. This batch sounded... whiny.

A whiny vulcan. Yea, this is a good start to a prequel to TOS.

I couldn't care less that they upgraded/streamlined the bridge. Or if they change the Klingons into bumpy-forehead gusy instead of weird-eyebrow guys.

But I fear the flavor of Trek is just dead for me in this new series. I thank Glacophane for pointing out to me his favorite episodes from this season. I'll catch some and see how they are. If a few of them are decent this could turn into a good "watch while grading papers" show for me.

 

[Recoil]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

GKE.

IMO regarding the three Shatner trilogies I'd for sure read the first 2. The third trilogy (which will be finished next January) isn't nearly as good as the first two imo, but its decent. Here is the info on the books:

Trilogy 1
Odyssey

Ashes of Eden
The Return
Avenger

Trilogy 2
Mirror Universe Saga
Spectre
Dark Victory
Preserver

The last books in both trilogies really have some neat tie-ins to some old and mysterious threads in TOS. Preserver in specific not only ties into TOS but TNG as well. They are great because they took elements of TOS as well as elements that Picard was into (with him being an archological buff) and put them in a big novel. Good stuff.

Ashes of Eden is sort of a stand alone intro into the series, and COULD be skipped, but its a decent story. In the first trilogy Return and Avenger are the greats.

-----

Antony, yea it can be hard to get good writing, but DS9 managed to do just fine. It was by far the best of all Trek series. And I do sort of agree with you GKE about First Contact. Since it was such a good movie, they just figured they would take the Borg and toss them in everything and that would make everyone happy. Big Mistake...

 

[Recoil]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

I couldn't care less that they upgraded/streamlined the bridge. Or if they change the Klingons into bumpy-forehead gusy instead of weird-eyebrow guys.

Its funny you mention that. Fans are so stupidly obsessive about that sort of thing. One would think that it would be UNDERSTOOD that the reason the Klingons were different in the TOS series from movies and TNG was because it was filmed in the 60s and lacked effects. Same with the Enterprise Bridge. Yet, fans were always in an uproar about that.

What I find amusing, is Deep Space 9 did a GREAT TOS tribute episode called "Trials and Tribulations." In it, it was a chance for the writers to poke a little fun at those obsessive fans who refused to let go.

There was a scene where a waitress was like "look at all the klingons in here" and the DS9 crew looks around and says "where?" "all over" They look at Worf and say "They look nothing like you or like the Klingons from Kahless's era, they arent Klingons" and Word just says "it is a private matter that we don't discuss with outsiders"

I actually liked that episode because they re-created the Enterprise and crew to look EXACTLY as it did back in the 60s (and of course used stock footage). But the exterior shots of the TOS Enterprise were done new for DS9 and looked sharp.

You are right though Hyp. Right from the get-go Enterprise really stood against all previous incarnations of Trek. They even left Star Trek out of the name because B&B didn't necessairly want to "acknowledge it" or "turn off non-Trek fans."

 

[hypatia]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

A show like Trek has to have some fun episodes, and you've mentioned one of the best, ever. That was great fun.

Not to back track too much, but in regards to "not wanting to associate the series too much with Trek"... I agree with CE here: then don't set it in the Trek universe. Simple.

I suspect this was a matter of wanting to eat your cake and then have it, too. They wanted just enough association with Trek to pull in the "I'll follow Trek anywhere" crowd, but they didn't want to be tied down to anything.

Then make a new series and have it stand on its own. Cowards.

 

[colonyearth]

Re: Enterprise: \"Countdown\"

As an example of B&B and their take on the fans of Trek and at least one of the harsh, rude comments made by current Trek powers, here is a link to an article, which was in regards to the Viacom crackdown on Trek sites a few years back. It also happens to have quoted one of the statements made by Braga (see also below).

It also shows that I am not the only one to blame B&B for a lot of Trek's current woes...others have been blaming them for years.

This is only one article...I have found at least five sites so far calling for B&B to leave and to "Save Trek." And I've only just begun the search.

Here is the link: http://www.sfbg.com/Extra/Features/trek.html

And here is a quote from the article:

The Ultimate Star Trek Page's Nazeer Ali, whose site was also given the Vulcan Death Grip, believes Viacom is just lashing out because the quality of Star Trek-related TV programs (and ratings) have plummeted. "You can save money on sleeping pills by watching DS9," he says.

Howard Rabb blames Rick Berman, Star Trek's chief executive producer, and Brannon Braga, co-executive producer and head writer for Star Trek: Voyager, for the slip in quality. Braga didn't help his popularity when he described Internet fans in Sci-Fi Universe as having "too much time on their fucking hands."

Yeah, he loves us fans, don't he?

CE