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Bad guys....

D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
Just took a look at Douglas Netter's intro to the rangers website where he states -

"In the initial movie, Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers, the Rangers encounter a previously unknown alien race whose lethal power is far greater than any force previously known to Earth or any other world in the Interstellar Alliance."

Quite interesting, because that would mean they're more powerful than Vorlons, Shadows and even Thirdspacers. The broad statement may even include Lorien!
shocked.gif
We know from the canon books the Shadows power is insanely great (Vorlons being roughly equal in power), creating universes, building planet sized planet killers in minutes/hours etc. So I have to wonder just how powerful the new bad guys on the block are. Or maybe Doug's statement was on the fly and not meant to be taken so literal, although he would know a ton about Babylon 5 to make such statements.

What do you think? Simple mistake or to be taken seriously?

If serious, I would imagine the only way for the ISA to win then is to either lose-win (like in thirdspace, they didn't win but they did if you get me) or have a dues-ex machina save the day (Ironheart?).

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BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio
 
Well, according to the AICN review....

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>....the Rangers do indeed encounter a new alien race called The Hand. The review says that this race is so powerful that they make the Shadows look like insects. So I would guess that this is not a "simple mistake", and that it may in fact be accurate. </font></td></tr></table>




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How could that be possible? We know that they are not as old as the First Ones...
*Spoiler*
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How could they possibly have tech that surpasses them?
shocked.gif


------------------
"Forget about the reasons and
The treasons we are seeking
Forget about the notion that
Our emotions can be swept away
Forget about being guilty,
We are innocent instead
For soon we will all find our lives swept away"
-Dave Mathews Band
"Seek up"
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Springob:
Well, according to the AICN review....

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>....the Rangers do indeed encounter a new alien race called The Hand. The review says that this race is so powerful that they make the Shadows look like insects. So I would guess that this is not a "simple mistake", and that it may in fact be accurate. </font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't read the review but I can assume with great confidence that the person who reviewed it knew nothing of the first ones 'true' power. Since in the series they were NEVER actually trying to wage a REAL war, just teach the younger races to come together. It may have snowballed a little but it was no where near as bad as it could be.

Crabs now all SPK's, Technomage murder plagues dropped on planets by phasing fighters, telepath bombs, the eye, doomsday telepaths (in context of a galaxy!), slave races (from telepathy) and so on. And JMS has stated that the Shadows and Vorlons are roughly equal so anything the Shadows can do, the Vorlons can match.

Emfeeli - Maybe they come from an alternate dimension? Explains how no one knows about them and how they could be more powerful than first ones.


------------------
BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Emfeeli - Maybe they come from an alternate dimension? Explains how no one knows about them and how they could be more powerful than first ones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, also from the AICN review:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>OK, here's a direct quote: "Anyhow the ambassadors wre meant so see and Archeological Dig that found a city deep within the planet. Here, there is an ominous structure. G'Kar explains this to Martel. This "pyramid" is a gateway to another "dimention" where the new race called "The Hand" resides. It is said by one of the characters later (I'm not giving everything away) that this race was banished billions of years ago as is so powerfull that they make the Shadows look like "insects"." </font></td></tr></table>




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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Springob:
Well, also from the AICN review:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>OK, here's a direct quote: "Anyhow the ambassadors wre meant so see and Archeological Dig that found a city deep within the planet. Here, there is an ominous structure. G'Kar explains this to Martel. This "pyramid" is a gateway to another "dimention" where the new race called "The Hand" resides. It is said by one of the characters later (I'm not giving everything away) that this race was banished billions of years ago as is so powerfull that they make the Shadows look like "insects"." </font></td></tr></table>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well as I said, the first ones have some behind the scenes stuff that would destroy the ISA in maybe at most a week(?). So if this is true then the ISA wouldn't be able to even touch them, let alone destroy them. I mean one Technomage (with old school spells) alone could probably take on an ISA fleet and kick it's ass with very little effort.

So even if this is stated by the characters, this would be from an ISA point of view who are ignorent of the real power of first ones. In other words, not reliable in any sort.

Besides, Shadows look like insects anyway.
laugh.gif




------------------
BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio
 
I think I read somewhere that the universe was created roughly eight billion years ago. eight BILLION, in that span of time civilizations could have risen, fallen, risen again, and go extinct before the gasious elements of Z'Ha'Dun condensed into the recocgnizable shape of a planet. There's probably been quite a few Vorlon/Shadow-like races out there over the eons that have either gone extinct or gone elsewhere. That's one possibility. Maybe this one, the Hand, decided to come home.

That's another possibility. I read an article on the internet about the Babylon 5 galactic stage. Every single planet, alien, nebula, ship, constellation, and government in the B5 universe can fit inside a little red dot upon viewing it all from the perspective of the Milky Way Galaxy. There's a whole lot of Galaxy out there. I whole shit load of it, too. Maybe, the Hand, is in fact our next door neighbors deciding to come over and visit/attack?

And finally maybe Lorien lied. What if the Hand were his people's Shadows? The great evil they had to fight. The great evil that wiped out everyone of Lorien's species except Lorien himself. Maybe that is the one TRUE reason he's the last one left. That would be VERY interesting.

Then again...

Maybe I'm drawing conclusions to tiny fragments of info. Maybe my creative-side of the mind is on overdrive and I need to rest my head?

Maybe?

Maybe so?

Gotta get some sleep.

Myrl Out

------------------
Tick: Everybody was a baby once, Arthur. Oh, sure, maybe not today, or even yesterday. But once! Babies, chum: tiny, dimpled, fleshy mirrors of our us-ness, that we parents hurl into the future, like leathery footballs of hope! And you've got to get a good spiral on that baby, or evil will make an interception!

Tick: And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!

[This message has been edited by Myrl (edited October 14, 2001).]
 
Well I can understand the many explanations of where the bad guys came from, it doesn't make sense they'd be able to beat first ones who have such amazing power and not win a war against the ISA. Because First Ones in a 'real' war, and not trying to teach any lessons would kill off the ISA really easily. So the bad guys would have no trouble killing off the ISA if they can beat the Shadows so easily. Guess we will have to wait to see.

------------------
BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio
 
Dark Lord-

See, that's the story, right there.

We know from "Deconstruction" that the ISA wins.

But HOW does the ISA win? And how do the Rangers figure? It seems that the story of Rangers is the story of Captain Martel - after all, the trailer focused on his status as the "unlikely hero" that everyone depended on. He's obviously the central character... sort of like at the beginning of B5 JMS said the story of B5 was the story of Jeffrey Sinclair.

I can't wait to find out.

------------------
Ranger Channe, the next JMS, who lives for the One and dies for the Chocolate Cheesecake.
 
It will be very interesting to see how the rangers deal with this.Perhaps they are older than the shadows or perhaps like the vorlons the shadows opened a dimensional gate long ago and let 'The Hand' in.We will just have to weait and see...

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957
 
Since the Vorlons, Shadows and other First Ones have gone beyond the rim, this new race The Hand will have to be defeated by cleverness not brute power.

It sounds like a job for the Rangers.
crazy.gif
mad.gif
tongue.gif


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> We know from the canon books the Shadows power is insanely great (Vorlons being roughly equal in power), creating universes, building planet sized planet killers in minutes/hours etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


In which book do they create universes or build planet sized planet killers in minutes or even hours??


I've read them all, and I don't recall any such thing. The one series of scenes where we See a planet killer being Built, it takes Much longer.

If it could be done in "hours", the Drakh would have built more than just the Two we know about.

My memory is that the Drakh found the Shadow factory with two planet killers completed and a third almost ready.



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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
Channe - Well if that is the story then it sounds like thirdspace but with a different spin. Kinda reminds me of the quantum leap intro 'putting right what once went wrong'.
smile.gif


Bakana - Technomage and Centauri trilogy.

It doesn't take that long. The technomages were right behind the Drakh and have better speed than them as well. So would in fact overtake them with more travel time (As ACTA shows, the technomage probe outrunning the whitestar). So I assume the travel time was at most a few minutes.

No, one was complete and heading for testing (ACTA SPK). The other two were mere skeletons which had just been started on, when Vir reached C&C he saw a holographic projection showing it almost complete. They were hardly running around Xha'Dam for a few hours. We were with them step by step in the story. Peter david makes quite the effort to show how quickly they were made. And why would they have complete SPK's hanging around the base? The technomages didn't even think it was finished, then realised it was but just never bothered to turn it on. Obvious reason being they want to teach the YR's not kill them, as JMS has answered. Also they divided construction by building two at a time instead of one, combining the worker bots to build one PK would take half the time obviously. So the first SPK was probably a test run, it's then built in maybe a few minutes, realising it's speed divide resources to build more but keep things quick.

And the universe creation is in the technomage novels, Galen creates a universe around things then collapses into infinite smallness. Along with whatever is inside. Technology made by the Shadows.

------------------
BETH: "Well all I did was go for a really long walk."
JIMMY: "Where'd you go?"
BETH: "I don't know... I mean... all over the city, I guess... and then somehow I ended up standing outside Bill's apartment building and... I wanted to make sure he was... really gone, you know... so I figured out which window was his and then I just started yelling, you know, "BILL, HEY BILL!!!"
JIMMY: "And then what happened?"
BETH: "Well, finally someone opened their window and yelled down, "Shut the hell up you crazy bitch!"
JOE: "That's just what Bill would've done."
BETH: "Yeah, and that just made me think... his spirit lives on in others." - Newsradio
 
Some spoilers about "The Hand", but nothing new to those who have read the first review.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Someone mentioned that "The Hand" was banished from this dimension a long time ago. If they were banished, *someone* had to banish them. A logical guess would be either one or several species of First Ones.

Thus we may conclude that "making Shadows look like insects" is both metaphoric (they already look like insects
smile.gif
) and an overstatement (they are among the oldest and most dangerous of known First Ones).

"The Hand" may have destructive weapons not seen before, but if they could be forced to retreat and hide in another dimension, they were far from invincible. They probably have weaknesses -- which are naturally not apparent.

And to clarify, the First Ones have not left yet -- they are hanging around, waiting for Lorien to get his business with Sheridan finished. They might also be hanging around in case they are needed -- in case someone should find the last "escape hatch" of "The Hand" and be foolish enough to open it.

Thus we may conclude that curiosity almost killed the cat. Someone opened it, "The Hand" noticed that other First Ones were apparently gone and decided to try. Unfortunately for them, it seems that other First Ones were *not* needed to fight them. They younger races used their infinite supply of foolishness...</font></td></tr></table>



[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited October 15, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
Spoilers follow...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>1. Spoiler space doesn't really work on message boards like this.
2. PLEASE NOTE WHAT IT IS YOU'RE SPOILING.


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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison qouting Gustave Flaubert
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>1. Spoiler space doesn't really work on message boards like this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And spoiler boxes won't work for those of us using WebTV. So I can't decide. Therefore I decided to remove the spoiler warning completely. This whole thread is a spoiler.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>2. PLEASE NOTE WHAT IT IS YOU'RE SPOILING.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See above.

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
I finally figured out a way how to answer the question: to use or not to use spoiler boxes? I flipped a coin.

The result was favourable to using them, so here they are again. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused.
 
*Spoiler*
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The alternate dimension thing makes sense. I doubt Lorien would have lied to the younger races and not told them about "The Hand." The thirdspace aliens, overpowered the vorlons, and I'm sure would have been a good match for the first ones. I wonder what "the hand's" power is compared to the thirdspace aliens? "the hand" must be godlike whatever they are, if they make the shadows look like "insects." Jeez.
wink.gif


------------------
"Forget about the reasons and
The treasons we are seeking
Forget about the notion that
Our emotions can be swept away
Forget about being guilty,
We are innocent instead
For soon we will all find our lives swept away"
-Dave Mathews Band
"Seek up"
 
Dark Lord - I doubt that it's going to be much like Thirdspace - and if it is, I'll be quite dissappointed.

Everybody - I'm taking myself off this thread - it's getting too dangerous spoiler-wise.
smile.gif


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Ranger Channe, the next JMS, who walks in the dark places no one may enter, lives for the One, and dies for the chocolate cheesecake.
 
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