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B5 DVD review

S

sputnik

Member
Well I got my copy of The Gathering/ItB on Friday (three days before the official release date - no idea how that happened)...

Rather than review the films (which I'm sure we all know!) I thought I'd post a few words about the DVD itself...

Firstly, the blurb on the case:

"A dynamic double bill from one of TV's most unique series ever. All systems go. The long-running, emmy-winning science-fiction TV series Babylon 5 launches onto DVD with two feature length adventures chronicling landmarks in the history of the space metropolis that's a way station for the universe's populace and a shining hope for universal peace. Indeed The Gathering (side a), the series pilot, concerns an interstellar summit aimed at negotiating a lasting truce - if an assassin's agenda doesn't have the opposite effect. Set primarily in the decade before the orbital station existed, the prequel In The Beginning (side b) depicts the tumultuous and tragic events of the Earth-Minbari War, the fight that shaped interstellar events and paved the way for the construction of the universal safeport."

The more eagle-eyed amongst you will have spotted the references to side a and side b...

Yes, despite the fact that this was advertised as a double DVD it is in fact one of those accursed double sided DVDs. The case is the typical WB cardboard clip case - when will they learn to use nice plastic ones?

Additionally despite the fact that this is the reworked (TNT) version of The Gathering the case still lists music as being by Stewart Copeland, NOT Chris Franke.

Picture quality is good, without being incredible and there are the odd video artifacts in some shots - this is more prevalent in The Gathering.

I was rather disappointed with the sound - it is only available in 2 channel output, but again it does the job.

The DVD menus are incredibly dull and boring - this was put together by the placement student in an afternoon. Options on offer are: Play Movie, Scene Selections (leading to clusters of still shots), Cast & Crew (a mind numbingly useless still page listing the actors, director, producers etc...) and Languages (English or French).

The DVD is Region One encoded but I've no idea about RCE - my player was mod-ed to play multi-region and RCE so I can't tell!

As DVD releases go this is not an auspicious start. Whilst the case does hint at the possibility of further releases, the general presentation is poor and the lack of any extras is lamentable. This is not a DVD created with any kind of love or affection for the show - its a plain and simple by the numbers reproduction of two video releases onto DVD.

Films: 8/10 DVD: 4/10

Buy it... and hope this will encourage WB to release the rest of the series in a better fashion...


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Thanks for the review, Sputnik!

My decision to buy it has been more than certain... for more than a while. Yet it is always interesting to hear others' impressions.
smile.gif


So no reliable data about RCE? I hope that they left it out -- understanding that this disk is going to have international sales, no matter if they want it or not. It would be logical to avoid RCE -- this decision would win some new customers from the regions where they will not release it.

But then again, it would decrease their possibilities for asking nonsensical prices for the Region 2 release. Warner Home Video has never exhibited particularly good logic in such decisions, but go figure. Time will tell.

While RCE might cause headache for some people who have RPC1-type regionfree players, I managed to hear of the possibility early on and have found a cure for my DVD-ROM drive.

---

As for the minor artifacts you mentioned... did they look more like actual film artifacts (from an old film roll) or were they more like compression artifacts? The latter could easily originate from a hasty replacement of the old "Gathering" with the new one.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited December 03, 2001).]
 
Lennier - there was one artifact in The Gathering that 'looked' to be due to old film or other deleterious effects. However there were also a number of encoding style artifacts present.

I think the thing that bugged me most about this DVD release was, as you say, so many of us had already decided to buy it no matter what. This is our way of showing support, hopefully encouraging WB to release the series on DVD, and getting these films on a more durable medium than VHS.

As such I was hoping for more than the lacklustre product we get. Don't get me wrong - in no way, shape or form am I urging people not to buy the dvd... I'm just alerting you all that it is not anywhere near the standard of quality of I'd've liked - or feel we deserve.

When I look at what I get on my Farscape and Stargate SG-1 DVDs (in terms of menus, extra features etc.) and compare it to this I could weep...

...or get violent with WB...

one or the other anyway! ;-)

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Aside from this being a marketing test, there is one more thing we have to keep in mind.

Unless I am mistaken, WHV had already digitized the original cut of "Gathering" when this mistake was discovered. JMS strongly encouraged them to use the second cut and Warner agreed with the idea.

The mistake and correcting it must have set the project back by a significant amount of time and money -- time and money which might have otherwise been used for removing artifacts, compiling better menus and ordering a glittery package.

Would I prefer the first cut of "Gathering" in a glittery package... or the second cut on a hastily finished disk? I am not sure.

I have seen only one version of "Gathering" and this was some time ago. But I do trust the generally accepted opinion that the second cut is significantly better.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited December 03, 2001).]
 
Try to look at this from Warner Home Video's perspective:

1) They see themselves as the home video arm of Warner Bros. Studio. They do feature films, not television shows - which have a very spotty sales record on home video in the U.S.

2) When they finally get arm-twisted into releasing the show on VHS it sells OK for awhile, then goes into the toilet. (Yes, we all know why this happened, but the top brass at WHV doesn't get it.)

3) People keep bugging them to release the show anyway.

So they finally decide to take a chance and release two of the stand-alone TV movies, at the lowest managable cost, and see how they do. They've seen Paramount's disappointing performance with Star Trek, Fox's surprise success with The X-Files and their own failure with B5 on VHS. They're just not sure at this point if the show is going to perform more like Trek or more like X-Files. This disc is their attempt to find out. Did anybody really expect them to lavish a lot of time and money pulling together extras and doing a two-disc set for this "test disc"? I sure didn't. Doing a two disc set increases the disc production costs and packaging costs. Doing two separate releases doubles every cost except mastering (e.g., inventory, shipping and warehouse costs.)

(BTW, we and the Aussies are getting a bargain. We're getting both TV movies on one disc for a low price - $20 USD list, between $13 and $16 street price. In March the Brits are getting each movie on a separate disc for twenty pounds (list) or nineteen pounds with the Amazon UK "discount".)

The result is a barebones release of two TV movies. I'm not sure why this surprised you since the fact that it was going to be a two-sided disc without extras has been known and discussed right here for months. Warner Home Video never said that this was going to be a two disc set, only that it would be a "double feature." I personally have no problem with two-sided discs when the content on each side is different. The ones I hated were the early "flippers" like Goodfellas, The Right Stuff and the first release of the Stargate movie where the movie stopped in mid-scene and you had to turn it over to finish watching the thing.

As for the sound - the shows were recorded and mixed in 2-channel matrixed Dolby Surround. That's because they're TV movies, and at the time virtually no one could either broadcast or receive digital sound via television. It is still the case that most people can't get DD 5.1 at home. Why would anyone expect a remix on the the DVD? It costs a fair amount of money to open up the sound stems and do a total remix to discrete 5.1 channel Dolby Digital. This isn't even done on a lot of feature films - only on the ones they expect to sell in large enough numbers to justify the cost. (And then many film purists complain and insist that the original soundtrack - mono, stereo or Pro Logic - also be included on the disc.)

You can forget about Warner Home Video spending the money to remix 110 episodes. There is a slight chance that they might remix the two remaining matrix-surround TV movies. (A Call to Arms was originally mixed in DD 5.1, then downconverted to Pro Logic for broadcast, as was all of Crusade. I'm sure Rangers will be the same.)

The films don't look as good as theatrical films for much the same reason. When you expect your movie to be seen on 13" to 80" screens - and has to be finished in 1/3 or less of the time on 1/20 the budget that a comparable theatrical film would get - you don't lavish the attention on sets, lighting, lens selection and other things that affect the final look of the film. To a degree you are counting on the lo-res qualities of TV to hide the flaws. Transfer something that looks good on broadcast TV or VHS to DVD and all sorts of imperfections are going to show up. A 1993 or 1998 TV movie is simply not going to look as good as a 2001 theatrical film when it hits DVD. But it is going to look and sound better than it ever did on broadcast television or cable.

Copeland is credited with the musical score because he was the original composer and his contract says that he gets the credit. The credits are the same on the VHS box of the special edition. Franke's credit is on the film itself under something like "new music by" or "special edition score by"

For all that you don't like about what WHV has done, let's remember the major thing that they got right. They not only released In the Beginning in widescreen, but in anamorphic widescreen. That means that back when they were re-doing the widescreen masters for The Sci-Fi Channel someone over there actually had the brains to create hi-res D1 masters, rather than simply do NTSC resolution letterboxed ones. (Anamorphic widescreen DVDs can only be produced from hi-res sources.) This takes longer and costs more, and it shows that Warner Bros. was paying attention where it really counts.

Warner Bros. is using this disc to find out if what we've all been saying for years is true - that there really is a audience out there for the show on home video, and that DVD is the way to release it. If it sells well enough they'll be thrilled to release season boxed sets - with extras -because they know that they're going to make money. They just need to be convinced.

Regards,

Joe

------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Question: What sort of sales do you think WB is going to require to consider it a successful release?

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
 
This is a question only they can answer.

Naturally they would like as much sales as possible. How much they expect depends on how much they produced, but lacking an intelligence service of my own (which Joe hopefully has
laugh.gif
) I can't make a proper guess.

Has anyone managed to get a keeper into WHV?
wink.gif


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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
Try to look at this from Warner Home Video's perspective ... If it sells well enough they'll be thrilled to release season boxed sets - with extras -because they know that they're going to make money. They just need to be convinced.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Right on the money as usual, Joe. As much as I would love to see DD5.1, deleted scenes and commentary tracks, these are icing.

At least we got the cake ... and I am sincerely hoping we get all 5 seasons of cake!

Perhaps in 10 years B5 is recognized for the brilliant series it is instead of the Trek clone so many seem to think it is. Can we look forward to a HD-DVD widescreen special edition with revamped CGI, DTS 7.1 sountrack, deleted scenes, commentary, etc.?

There is always hope, anyway.

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Rob Scott
 
To Joe or anyone else who knows:

It was mentioned that In The Begining was released in Anamorphic Widescreen. Is this an option for the release of the original seasons? Or were the Telemovies recorded in better quality than the season episodes? I guess I am trying to see what all the season episodes can be, sound, picture, letterbox, and the like. ITB sounds like it is a quality release, would we be able to expect the same for the episodes or something a bit less?

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>It was mentioned that In The Begining was released in Anamorphic Widescreen. Is this an option for the release of the original seasons? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe it is. As I think I mentioned in passing above, it seems that when they created new widescreen masters for the Sci-Fi Channel they went the extra mile and did them as high resolution digital versions, rather than just NTSC. I can't think of any reason that they would have done this for the TV movies and not the series episodes. Part of the reason was undoubtedly to have the series ready for hi-def HDTV broadcast - the reason JMS shot on Super35 with widescreen in mind in the first place.

This had the secondary effect of allowing Warner Home Video to release the widescreen movies and episodes in 16:9-enhanced (anamorphic) transfers. Such transfers can only be created from a hi-def source, so it seems that this is what WHV had to work with. Since I don't think that Warner Bros. Television would have done D1 masters simply to allow WHV to release the movies in anamorphic widescreen on DVD, I can only conclude that they did the entire series this way (except, of course, the 1.33:1 standard 35mm The Gathering) for their own purposes, and it was a bonus that WHV could also use them.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
In the words of the immortal C. Montgomery Burns: 'Eeeexcellent'

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
joe - you seem to be suggesting that we should be grateful that WB have released B5 on DVD at all, and to some extent i am.

nonetheless, poor sales of VHS aside, a little bit more effort would have helped sell this product. there are always some hardcore fans (and i think we B5LR inhabitants count as this) who will buy what is released. for this to be a success, however, requires that WB do more than sell us whatever they can be arsed shipping out.

there are likely to be some people who quite liked the show and would be tempted to buy a dvd with features - certainly additional features often sways me when its a film/tv show that i'm not passionate about. the utter lack of additional features *may* put some people off, and i refuse to believe there's no documentaries or interviews that could have been added on for minimal cost.

with regards to the flipper disc, i guess i missed the discussion on this. certainly all the sites *i've* seen have been 'selling' this as a two disc set - and again i think there are a fair few people (me chief amongst them!) who loathe flippers. and the additional costs in terms of mastering and packaging for a two disc set are NOT that prohibitive.

copelands credit for music is fair, but there is NO mention of chris franke anywhere on the case - i wasn't complaining per se, merely commenting on further evidence that no care has been put into this presentation.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Warner Bros. is using this disc to find out if what we've all been saying for years is true - that there really is a audience out there for the show on home video, and that DVD is the way to release it. If it sells well enough they'll be thrilled to release season boxed sets - with extras -because they know that they're going to make money. They just need to be convinced.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

so if they *really* want to generate an audience they should start on a high. how they (or you, or anyone) can think that a below par release is going to generate an audience for B5 DVDs is beyond me. and if they were that fussed for a good audience why multiple region releases? there are very few DVD players in the UK that don't support multi-region (by whatever means) and whilst RCE will dimish that number i don't see that splitting their market is going to help their plans in any way shape or form.

as previously mentioned i agree that we as B5 fans need to support this release. i don't think that we should be grateful to WB for giving us the opportunity to give them yet more money - not when they reward us with such minimal fare...

sputnik

- and as an aside; why the HELL do they decide to wait til march of next year before releasing the DVDs here in the UK? its hardly gonna make it any easier to decide if this thing is worthwhile doing...

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>there are very few DVD players in the UK that don't support multi-region (by whatever means) and whilst RCE will dimish that number i don't see that splitting their market is going to help their plans in any way shape or form.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am unaware of the situation in the UK, but in a large portion of Europe, multiregion and infinitely switchable regions is THE standard. I would guess that the UK has a fairly large percentage of multiregion players.

I have also seen preliminary claims that there is no RCE on the disk. This supports the idea of Warner being aware of the international and quite computer-aware nature of Babaylon 5 fans.

Perhaps they have drawn the correct assumption that the R1 release will have a global reach while disks of other regions will be bought on local markets by those who do not have multiregion-capable DVD drives. This would make R1 a pretty adequate measure of general market performance.

----

As for why they wait... well, go figure. Perhaps they are fools, or simply exceedingly careful.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited December 04, 2001).]
 
I do partly agree with your statement as to if you own it on VHS or something already. However with the B5 DVDs being of a higher quality as discussed above, better resolution, letterbox format, and stuff of the like, that may be the appeal. Lots of people who have stuff on VHS also buy them on DVD. I have all the Star Trek movies on VHS, but also bought them on DVDs, but not for extras. I did it for the higher quality picture, and the fact that the media doesn't wear out. But I can see how some people would not buy the DVD if they have the VHS without any 'extra' incentives, so point taken.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>How about people who own the film on video already?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As noted above, DVDs have CD-quality sound, better picture, and they don't gradually self-destruct every time you play them. (They also take up a heck of a lot less storage space.) These are enough "extras" for most people to justify buying two movies for $15 to $20 (depending on where you shop), even if they already spent $30 to $40 buying the same two movies on an inferior medium a couple of years ago. (Which movies are quietly deteriorating on their shelves even as you read this.)

Besides, the whole problem with the VHS release, in Warner Bros. eyes, is that not enough people bought the things - so this is probably not a constituency they need to court all that much. (The fact is that most people who already owned DVD players at the time - myself among them - ignored the VHS release because we knew that sooner or later WHV would have to release the show on DVD. And because we no longer bought tapes of anything. There were more than enough worthwhile DVDs coming out every month to account for our home video budgets.)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
These are enough "extras" for most people to justify buying two movies for $15 to $20 (depending on where you shop), even if they already spent $30 to $40 buying the same two movies on an inferior medium a couple of years ago.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not for me it wouldn't. Considering that I haven't bothered to watch 4/5 of the movies I have on video (many of them still shrink-wrapped), there's no way I would buy them on DVD as long as I have a working VCR, no matter the picture/sound quality.

And I don't intend to replace those that I have watched and liked either. I just don't watch anything often enough to worry about, say, wearing the tape out.

Of course, I might be just some weird exception to the rule.
laugh.gif


I get your point, I was just trying to point out that there are some people for whom extras would help make the decision to buy the DVD. No, I don't think that there are enough of them to make WHV care - my post was made in responce to Recoil who said that extras don't matter at all.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
 
Remember casette tapes? Everyone bought CDs, even though people had tapes. Hopefully, DVD is slowly becoming the video equivalent. Everybody is upgrading their entertainment tech.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I just don't watch anything often enough to worry about, say, wearing the tape out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, your videotapes are deteriorating even if you never watch them. Time and oxygen are enough to do that even if they're sitting on the shelf, still shrink-wrapped. (Most shrink-wrap not being airtight.)

But I get your point. I buy most of my movies because I am a movie freak and I really will sit down and watch (or analyze) a favorite film eight or nine times. Or break out an obscure title to share with a friend who has never seen it. Or invite a bunch of folks over, break out the popcorn and watch a "brain-optional" flick like Independence Day for the umpteenth time. But other titles, ones I'm just curious about, I rent. It doesn't sound as though you're enough of a movie freak and/or collector for you to be the target audience for this anyway.

I don't think that many people with unwatched VHS tapes still sitting on their shelves are likely to want to own an entire TV series. I don't want to own most of them, even the ones I liked. (Do I really need to have every episode of M*A*S*H? Am I going to watch them enough to justify owning them rather than renting a set once? I doubt it. But I will sit down over a rainy weekend and watch a whole season of X-Files, which I've done more than once, so that becomes a worthwhile purchase.)

Different strokes for different folks. But WHV has to target the folks who are most likely to shell out for the whole set. When it comes to the episodes they very likely will add extras precisely to lure folks who have spent a small fortune on a partial VHS collection to buy the DVDs. But for this first disc they want to measure the core audience in the U.S.

BTW, look for a new thread shortly on where Warner Bros. is with respect to releasing the episodes.
smile.gif


Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
Remember casette tapes? Everyone bought CDs, even though people had tapes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um... I didn't.
blush.gif

Come to think of it, I didn't even have any tapes. When I first took an interest in music, CDs were already around.
smile.gif


In any case, replacing a cassette tape with a CD makes more sense to me than replacing VHS tape with a DVD, mostly because I would be more likely to listen to a tape dozens of times than to watch a movie dozens of times.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
 
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