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Why are Shadows First Ones?

M

Mr. Bester

Beyond the rim
Why exactly are the Shadows considered first ones? I mean besides being old and having really advanced tech they've none of the abilities demonstrated by Lorien and Vorlons. They aren't telepathic(since Talia was able to see them) and they can't become intangible( since the Centauri were able to kill the two close to Morden).

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Who said the First Ones have to be telepathic or any of that stuff? They are old, older even than the Vorlons. They are one of the first races in the galaxy, therefore, First Ones.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Bester:
They aren't telepathic(since Talia was able to see them)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How does Talia being able to see/sense them indicate that the Shadows themselves are not telepathic? Maybe they didn't expect her to be able to see them.

Spoiler for Technomage Books 1 & 2:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> The Shadows communicate with the Drakh with a method that appears to be a lot like telepathy. They can even remotely control a Drakh, and talk through it, using the Drakh's mouth to communicate with non-Drakh, while the Drakh sleeps. </font></td></tr></table>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
and they can't become intangible( since the Centauri were able to kill the two close to Morden).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not so sure about that. They've been in the crowded Zocolo with Morden. They've been with Morden in narrow Centauri Palace hallways. Why did nobody bump into them? See that's the problem when you're invisible but are still tangible. People walk straight into you because they don't see you standing there.

I think they phase almost like shadow ships entering/leaving hyperspace, except that energy weapons can still reach them while they're phased, but crude physical impacts cannot affect them. IMHO, Londo got lucky.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited November 08, 2001).]
 
They can always step to the side of those walking towards them.

The shadows do seem to be more physically and technologically oriented. This may be due to their philosophy about what is the important question. Improving technology and integrating it with your body would be quicker and perhaps more effective methods of getting 'what you want'. The Vorlons on the other hand could have turned their attention more towards themselves trying to improve 'who they are' with telepathy and more seemingly natural abilities. Both are extensions of what each race is all about.

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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
 
Spoilers for technomage books...

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>If the Shadows designed the tech used by technomages, we may assume that they have even better tech at their own disposal. They can probably heal, destroy, travel or communicate with as little effort as a thought.</font></td></tr></table>

Getting blown away by Londo's bodyguards was:

1. Not certain. They may have simply got hurt and retreated into the safety of another dimension.

2. If certain, an example of extreme arrogance and carelessness, something that all sentient beings (and especially those who have very few equals) are capable off. Just like with Ulkesh Naranek.

---

Either some or all Drakh are either naturally or technically telekinetic. We may well assume that this feature was added by the Shadows. Thus they would equip themselves with even better technology.

Shadow ships are controlled using the Eye. The Eye is a powerful system of telepathic control -- thus we may conclude that telepathy via technical means is something the Shadows are quite capable of.

Therefore I would say that besides being old and highly intelligent (which doesn't mean they can't be foolish or ignorant) the Shadows are physically and tecnically very capable. Perhaps more capable than the Vorlons, perhaps equal. In their relations with the younger races they never used their full powers, for they considered themselves guardians -- those who create chaos but never completely destroy.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 08, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
They can always step to the side of those walking towards them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum when they're in the cell with Morden. Look at how wide their stance is. It's wider than a person. Look at the width of the hallway when Morden, two Shadows, at least two security guards pass Talia and her escort in the hall. I just can't see the Shadows scurrying out of the way of "people" in a hallway or the Zocolo. It'd be undignified. Plus, they are not that agile. Ever see them move? It's slow and deliberate.




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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
Neither the shadows nor their ships travel in other demensions. With the right tech you can see a Shadow walking around as a kind of static. The sliding effect you see with their ships is simply entering hyperspace. A shadow personally going into hyperspace while on a planet is extremely unlikely. Fist off most races we've seen need to breathe and the Shadows seem more physical than some other first ones. Second even though Shadows could use tech similar to what the mages have to move without a ship the unpredictable nature of hyperspace and the gravity well caused by a planet would play hell with any Shadow trying to escape this way. Sometimes the simple answer is right.

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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
 
Centauri weapons have a much more rapid firing rate than Earthforce PPG rifles, as the Centauri were more advanced at that point in time, the guns probably had more oomph!

Don't forget, Lorien phased through a whitestar into outer space, and in the Kosh-Ulkesh tentaclicuffs, both Vorlons pass through a significant amount of hull before continuing to duke it out in space.

I have always believed that the First Ones have bodies that are atomically altered through their evolution, and have become neutron based as a pose to proton and electron based. Despite being solid a body of neutrons can pass through a solid object unscathed, and also contains tremendous energy.

Maybe an energy based attack can "interfere" with their bodies in a way that harms their make up!

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"We Live for the One. We die for the One!"
 
Both Lorien and the Vorlons demonstrated that they could pass through solid objects at will. Why assume Shadows can't do the same? The only evidence I can think of to suggest they can't is in Babylon Squared, in Garibaldi's time-flash, where he sees a door being cut through, but when it falls away, there doesn't seem to be anything on the other side.

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FWIW, JMS said that the Vorlon's have a Silicon based metabolism.
Forget the "neutron body" bit.

And, in at least one episode, we saw Shadows in a pure Energy state. When Delenn, Lyta and Ivanova went to Z'Ha'Dum, the Shadows that almost took them prisoner was in a Pure Energy state, floating free in space.

When Kosh & Ulkesh fought, they shifted back and forth between Energy and solid form, but most of the fight seemed to be in the Energy state.

The piece of Kosh that lived inside Sheridan was Energy, as were both Kosh and Ulkesh when they went "riding around" inside Lyta.

We saw Lorien transform into pure Energy at least twice.
Once on Z'Ha'Dum, when he was talking to Sheridan.
Again when he escorted the remaining First Ones out of the galaxy.

As far as Telepathy, we saw Lorien use telepathy to link everyone in the Fleet to what was going on between Sheridan, Delenn, the Vorlons and Shadows at the final battle of the Shadow War.
He was so good at it that they didn't even notice what he was doing until it was too late.

The Zog certainly appeared to have similar abilities during the brief time we saw them.

And, those were just Telepathic Images of the Vorlons & Shadows that came to greet Lorien when they finally called it quits.

To answer the Original question, they were referred to as First Ones because, until Sheridan met Lorien, no one Knew there was an even Older race.
It's not a piece of info the Shadows & Vorlons were running around telling people about.
So, everyone Thought they WERE the First races to achieve intelligence.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
The telepathic influence that Ivanova faced on her virtual voyage with the Great Machine was called the Eye.

It appeared to her as the face of a Shadow, with recognizable four rows of eyes. The same image appeared in the minds of those who approached Z'ha'dum on the White Star.

(Spoilers from technomage books 1 and 2.)

And the Eye...

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>...controls of Shadow vessels over great distance (this is possible as they have been built to receive its commands). What a telepath does when attacking a Shadow vessel is not only paralyzing a brain and body, but cutting the ship's connection with the Eye.</font></td></tr></table>

It seems that the Eye is a multi-purpose telepathic device. The Shadows can use it to control their ships over great distance, attack any mind over a short distance and undertake mental voyages in the galaxy like Ivanova did with the Great Machine.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 09, 2001).]
 
To the tyounger races they would be considered firstones meaning those that came before....

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
Neither the shadows nor their ships travel in other dimensions. With the right tech you can see a Shadow walking around as a kind of static. The sliding effect you see with their ships is simply entering hyperspace. A shadow personally going into hyperspace while on a planet is extremely unlikely.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I said "they phase almost like shadow ships entering/leaving hyperspace" I just meant that the effect "looks" similar. That's what the "almost like" was meant to convey. I didn't mean that Shadow beings went into Hyperspace when invisible.

Spoiler space for what may be considered a Story Idea:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> I suppose they could go to a pure energy form of themselves that does not emit light visible to humans or most other creatures. In addition, they seem to randomly change the frequencies at which they emit light (might be an autonomic bodily function), so nobody who is able to see them, is able to do it for long (a natural defense, which could have evolved before they were a really powerful race).</font></td></tr></table>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:

First off most races we've seen need to breathe and the Shadows seem more physical than some other first ones.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect there's tons of stuff about the Shadows, Vorlons, and other First Ones that we don't know. This would include their continuous need for an atmosphere (not necessarily air).

Spoiler space for what may be considered a Story Idea:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Maybe they're good at holding their breath. Maybe their atmospheric requirements are low, and their ability to store what they need within their bodies is great (e.g. a bladder or reserve). Maybe they've evolved to a pure energy form where they need no atmosphere at all anymore.

The Vorlon's need for a certain atmosphere in The Gathering may just have been to suggest a limitation that does not really exist, and discourage visitors to their quarters.
</font></td></tr></table>


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:

Second even though Shadows could use tech similar to what the mages have to move without a ship the unpredictable nature of hyperspace and the gravity well caused by a planet would play hell with any Shadow trying to escape this way. Sometimes the simple answer is right.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Spoiler space for Technomage Books 1 & 2:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> What? Something like a Technomage's moving platform, or something similar? Well, I suppose it's possible. Still we've never seen the Shadows themselves, move quickly, or in an agile fashion, like an insect might. </font></td></tr></table>


Again, I think it'd be considered undignified for them. I think people just pass right through them when they're invisible.


Spoiler space for what may be considered a Story Idea:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> When invisible, when not trying to interact with the outside environment, I think they can pass through solid matter if they want to do so. They may be using some tech like Technomage platform to keep their spikes on the floor, and keep from passing through walls as the station rotates. </font></td></tr></table>



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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
And, in at least one episode, we saw Shadows in a pure Energy state. When Delenn, Lyta and Ivanova went to Z'Ha'Dum, the Shadows that almost took them prisoner was in a Pure Energy state, floating free in space.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was "The Eye" (not to be confused Londo's long lost Centauri artifact; I think that's what the artifact that Morden retrieved for Londo, was called.).

We don't know what the Shadow Eye really was. It's been used as a form of planetary defense and telepathic control, and

Spoiler for Technomage Books 1 & 2:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> a means of communication between the Shadows and Shadow ships. </font></td></tr></table>


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
When Kosh & Ulkesh fought, they shifted back and forth between Energy and solid form, but most of the fight seemed to be in the Energy state.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That could have been just the release of energy as Kosh fought. It could indicate either Kosh attacking, the Shadows attacking, Kosh having a wounding effect on the Shadows, or Kosh himself being wounded.
Who knows? Given how the fight scenes in Kosh's quarters were filmed, it's obvious that JMS didn't want to get into it (actually showing a Shadow/Vorlon personal battle).


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
The piece of Kosh that lived inside Sheridan was Energy, as were both Kosh and Ulkesh when they went "riding around" inside Lyta.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. Sorta a piece of his soul, or life-force.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
We saw Lorien transform into pure Energy at least twice.
Once on Z'Ha'Dum, when he was talking to Sheridan.
Again when he escorted the remaining First Ones out of the galaxy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

..and also when he came for Sheridan in SiL.

However, Lorien is more advanced than either the Vorlons or the Shadows.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
The Zog certainly appeared to have similar abilities during the brief time we saw them.

And, those were just Telepathic Images of the Vorlons & Shadows that came to greet Lorien when they finally called it quits.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That could have been a simple holographic projection, with or without substance. e.g. like the Minbari's sensor display, the "recorder" in Racing the Night that Gideon touched, or Galen's Humonculus (sp?).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
To answer the Original question, they were referred to as First Ones because, until Sheridan met Lorien, no one Knew there was an even Older race.
It's not a piece of info the Shadows & Vorlons were running around telling people about.
So, everyone Thought they WERE the First races to achieve intelligence.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, they're all called "the First Ones" as a group, because they all evolved well ahead of the group called the younger races. Gees, now I'm wondering who "the ancients" were, an inbetween group that left? Maybe that's just another name for the First Ones.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
Bakana, what are the properties of a silicone based life form, all I know on that front, is it is the only other substance, scientists think a genetic sequence could be coded on. I'm not disagreeing at all, I'm not disputing their composition, I am merely wondering if that is the relevant factor. Don't forget in 1,002,262, WE can also change form into a Lorienesque ball, and we waltz around in encounter suits. We are carbon based beings, yet we have the same properties. All I am saying is maybe the vorlons are silicone based with a neutron charged body.
smile.gif


Incidentally, a lot of people comment on that last scene with the human envounter suit in TDoFS, trying to work out if it makes any implication about are nature in the future. I just think the floating ball effect and the encounter suits were just an effective way of representing visually what we were equivalent to.

If that was a ranger ship at the end of the episode, do the Minbari and Human races still have their own respective fleets, even despite the closeness of their future relationship?

------------------
Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
 
To clear up some contradictions in the earlier posts, perhaps adding new ones instead.

Being based on neutrons rules out being based on silicon. You can not have a body which at one moment consists of perfectly normal atoms and then suddenly turns into neutrons.

Atoms consist of protons, neutrons and electrons. Chemical bonds which allow them to form molecules (which in turn form cellular structures, which form cells, which form tissues and organs and so on...) are possible because the atoms have electrons.

Electrons would not stay in an atom without protons in the nucleus to attract them with their opposite electrical charge. A "being" mainly or completely consisting of neutrons would have no way to maintain structure, store information or control what becomes of it. It would simply disintegrate. It could not perform any function of life, even at the most primitive level.

Therefore we may safely assume that neither the Shadows or Vorlons enter a state where they consist of neutrons. They may use other means unimaginable to us, but they have to maintain their ability to live. Life requires maintaining structure and separation, even when "walking through walls".

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
To clear up some contradictions in the earlier posts, perhaps adding new ones instead.

Being based on neutrons rules out being based on silicon. You can not have a body which at one moment consists of perfectly normal atoms and then suddenly turns into neutrons.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I got a little snicker out of "neutron charged body."
smile.gif




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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
He got *very* lucky in any case.

They could have been tasting his Brevari at the other side of the room... or comfortably hanging from his chandelier. And in such a case, they could have quickly not only killed Londo and his guards, but leveled the palace, perhaps even the whole city.

Think of Galen's spell of destruction.
shocked.gif


First Ones have such technologies that a Shadow and a Vorlon using the full force of their technology to combat each other... would be equal to a nuclear bomb. A Shadow and a Vorlon, if prepared for individual combat, could easily destroy a space station from around them.

Therefore when I think of the Shadows' attack on Kosh, I tend to imagine it as mainly a battle of minds. The essence of such a battle can not be in using the most destructive weapons (although adequately prepared First Ones could, no doubt, also counter and alter a spell of destruction, directing it off target or turning it into a harmless fireball).

The essence of such a fight would be in overwhelming the enemy's mind, stopping all the weapons before their full force is released -- and when you have found a weakness, attacking with much simpler means of destruction. Three Shadows were needed to attack Kosh because an equal fight would have looked like a failiure in the station's reactors.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 09, 2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> what are the properties of a silicone based life form, all I know on that front, is it is the only other substance, scientists think a genetic sequence could be coded on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason some scientists think Silicon is a viable element in developing life is that, chemically, Carbon and Silicon react almost identically.
They both have the same number of Valence Electrons which controls most of the possible compounds the element can be made into.

There are differences related to the Atomic Weight which, of course IS different, but these differences do not rule out the ability to form the compounds necessary for life.

The biggest difference is that it is Easier for carbon to form these compounds, so few of our life forms ever needed to use Silicon.

There ARE a couple Terrestrial life forms that Have made use of Silicon as well as carbon compounds.

from: http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/chromista/bacillariophyta.html

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Introduction to Bacillariophyta (The Diatoms)
Life inside a glass box. . .

The Bacillariophyta are the diatoms. With their exquisitely beautiful silica shells, or frustules such as that of Odontella shown above at right, diatoms are among the loveliest microfossils. They are also among the most important aquatic microorganisms today: they are extremely abundant both in the plankton and in sediments in marine and freshwater ecosystems, and because they are photosynthetic they are an important food source for marine organisms. Some may even be found in soils or on moist mosses.

Diatoms have an extensive fossil record going back to the Cretaceous; some rocks are formed almost entirely of fossil diatoms, and are known as diatomite or diatomaceous earth. These deposits are mined commercially as abrasives and filtering aids. Analysis of fossil diatom assemblages may also provide important information on past environmental conditions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Getting blown away by Londo's bodyguards was:
1. Not certain. They may have simply got hurt and retreated into the safety of another dimension.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ahhh, another one who suspects...
After all, there never was a body, and if First Ones were That easy to kill there would've been no need for that elaborate scene with Ulkesh... and if only Shadows were That easy to deal with Kosh would've wiped the floor with them when they came to kill him...


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>2. If certain, an example of extreme arrogance and carelessness, something that all sentient beings (and especially those who have very few equals) are capable off. Just like with Ulkesh Naranek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems likely. Probably Shadows are almost impossible to defeat when they have their build-in defensive systems on-line, just like Vorlons. But in that case the Shadow on duty was overconfident and too trustind in the safety of his invisibility, and didn't bother with other defenses, (and a bit too slow to guess just what Londo's guards intended to Do with their rifles) so the unexpected attack did wound it, and it phased out to escape...


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Neither the shadows nor their ships travel in other dimensions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And what would you call "hyperspace" if not an "other dimension"
laugh.gif



<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Both Lorien and the Vorlons demonstrated that they could pass through solid objects at will. Why assume Shadows can't do the same? The only evidence I can think of to suggest they can't is in Babylon Squared, in Garibaldi's time-flash, where he sees a door being cut through, but when it falls away, there doesn't seem to be anything on the other side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That door was for the Shadow's attack troops - remember the creature in "The Long Dark"? Shadows seldom stand in the front lines - they send others (like these invisible Warriors, the Drakh, or their Eye-directed, sentient-as-CPU controlled ShadowShips)


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Who says that Morden is LITERALLY never alone? I know Delenn stated that, but it is possible that the Shadows may be 'waiting around a corner' while communicating with Morden. For example, Re-watch 'Interludes and Examinations.' Morden, after running some 'errands' to work his plot to get Londo back on his good side again, walks INTO a room, where the Shadows appear. They didn't walk into that room WITH him, they were already in it WAITING for him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maaaybe. Or they walked through the walls to get to that room - they were in motion when they became visible, and stopped walking then. After all, whenever we see someone check, Morden is Always 'escorted' by at least one Shadow. Even in his cell (and could you picture the guards holding the cell door open long enough so Mordens "invisible friends" can enter too?)
But as for walking through walls... watch the scene in "Interludes and Examinations" again, where the Shadows go to do Kosh...
short: Morden opens the door, stand in the doorway and the Shadows phase in before him already In Kosh's quarters. No place for them to squeeze through the door without pushing Morden away (actually given the narrow doorways on B5 they'd have problems even if none of their minions stood in the way), unless thes really can walk through solid matter if they put their mind to it (- set their phasing, or whatever correctly).


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>First Ones have such technologies that a Shadow and a Vorlon using the full force of their technology to combat each other... would be equal to a nuclear bomb. A Shadow and a Vorlon, if prepared for individual combat, could easily destroy a space station from around them.

Therefore when I think of the Shadows' attack on Kosh, I tend to imagine it as mainly a battle of minds...
-snip-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now That was some really good reasoning. Add to it that the attack on Kosh was made with surprise too (quickly overwhelm him before he can go 'full power') and you have a winner...

------------------
"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!
 
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