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Why are Shadows First Ones?

The Shadow attack on Kosh was Not a surprise.

Kosh knew they would be coming. He told Sheridan as much.
Sheridan just didn't Understand when Kosh said it.

And, as far as the Shadows bumping into people while walking around, at the level of Telepathy they are capable of, they could push Hundreds of people out of the way and None of them would ever remember.

The most likely explanation is that people who find themselves in the Shadow's way keep getting sudden impulses to stand up against the wall.

Morden would need to be under constant surveilance to detect such a thing. And the Shadows would probably notice the Surveilance cameras and fudge Them too.

Notice that, even when Morden and Londo meet in a Crowded area like the Zocalo, they seem to have an empty space all around them.
People just don't sit at the tables close to them, even though the place is Crowded. Shadows playing with people's minds, making them "not like" those tables. Or not notice that they are empty.

Sheridan only spotted the Shadows with Morden by scanning light frequencies the cameras didn't normally use.

Considering all the things that went on, I'd bet that, at some point, Sheridan told Londo how to locate the Shadows.
Which would explain just How Londo's Guards were able to know where to shoot.

Arrogance and the element of surprise were the two things that Killed those Shadows. Their Energy forms are probably almost unkillable, but they were using their real Bodies to avoid setting off all the alarms in the palace.
It's a good bet that either Vorlon or Shadow in full Energy state would set off all sorts of energy detectors.

Ulkesh was already suspicious when the shooting started. Plus, he had all the defenses of his Encounter Suit to start with.
By the time he was Out of the suit, he'd shifted from an easily killed Body to his Energy form.

That's how the Shadows were able to kill Kosh in his room. He stayed in his body for the fight because he didn't want an Energy battle to destroy the station and kill all the innocents.



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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
Regarding Shadows getting around on B5 when its crowded:

Who says that Morden is LITERALLY never alone? I know Delenn stated that, but it is possible that the Shadows may be 'waiting around a corner' while communicating with Morden. For example, Re-watch 'Interludes and Examinations.' Morden, after running some 'errands' to work his plot to get Londo back on his good side again, walks INTO a room, where the Shadows appear. They didn't walk into that room WITH him, they were already in it WAITING for him. So more likely, it isnt %100 true that they are literally at his side at all times. Perhaps they tagged along when he was being Interrogated by Sheridan so they could tell him what to say and how to respond, but on other occasions, he leaves with instructions and they remain behind, or lurking in a non-crowded corridor nearby.

THIS is the simplest answer of all, and probably the more likely one, especially after seeing that scene in Interludes...

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Recoil:
Regarding Shadows getting around on B5 when its crowded:

Who says that Morden is LITERALLY never alone?

>snip<

THIS is the simplest answer of all, and probably the more likely one, especially after seeing that scene in Interludes...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I like that answer. However it does mean that Londo got really lucky when his guards were able to shoot them.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
It's also possible the the reason no one was around Londo and Morden in a crowded area is because it would mess up the scene. It could have been a production call, not the Shadows at work.

Also, who knows how the Shadows messed with Morden physically and mentally? They might have altered him in some fashion to allow him to "carry" the Shadows, possibly in an anologous way to how Lyta carries Vorlons.

This is one of those things where we don't know exactly how it works, and it doesn't matter.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
A quick remark (still reading some of the above posts) -- unlike Vorlons, the Shadows do not seem to be "control freaks", as someone quite imaginatively described them.

While the Vorlons always carry a shell of armour and equipment with them, the Shadows probably don't bother. With their tech, they can conjure a shield or remove an opponent from this universe very quickly. But if you surprise them, they may be easier to hurt than a Vorlon -- due to wearing no bulky encounter suits.

This is what always made me wonder about Galen (spoilers for the second technomage book)...

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>He managed to kill several Shadows with his spell of destrction. Yes, it was by surprise, but they basically did nothing to stop him. They basically let themselves be killed, instead of attacking him either telepathically, telekinetically or with spells like his own.

Why did they consider Galen so important? Important enough to give their own lives for getting him alive? Was it truly so that the Shadow way of thinking... is so different that they were unable to teach the younger races how to use the tech?

This would explain wanting Galen very badly -- he would be the key to getting an army of several hundred beings with abilities of destruction comparable to the First Ones. Comparable, but not necessarily better -- for Kosh parked its ship on Galen's way with a healthy amount of confidence.</font></td></tr></table>

As for Kosh: yes, it probably didn't want to start splitting atoms or starting a mutual programming match with something like:

Target = New(UniverseType)
Target.Location = FindFirst(Enemy)
Tatget.SealOff
Target.Collapse

There was a space station with countless sentients around, many people who Kosh cared about among them. The Shadows too had many interests aboard Babylon 5. Neither Kosh nor the Shadows would have wanted to destroy the station.

And Ulkesh... was simply battling with a very strange mixture:

Part of Kosh -- knowledge of Vorlon weaknesses.
Part of Lorien -- vast experience.
Part of Sheridan -- clueless but very annoyed.

No wonder such a "divided personality" took Ulkesh by surprise, after it had lost the possibility to use its encounter suit.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 10, 2001).]
 
In reply to KoshN:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>I suspect that the range of a spell depends on a mage's experience and spell language (the language must allow precise target definition over great distances), the type of spell and access to additional sensors.

In this situation there were various factors increasing range:

- A very angry mage.
- A mage with a mathematical spell language.
- Empty space around them, no distractions.
- Access to a mage ship's sensors.
- A simple and powerful spell.

This could make the range increase vastly --from that of sidearms to that of space combat (hundreds, perhaps even thousands of kilometers).

The main problem with illusion spells seemed to be visual range -- the illusion is no longer reliable when out of sight. With access to a ship's sensors for locating targets, it could be that the spell of destruction can be cast over great distances.

Which is why I believe that the Vorlons possess similar abilities, and Kosh would have:

1. Told its ship to attack independently.
2. Told its ship to jam the technomage ship's sensors.

With most of Galen's spells going off target due to jamming, Kosh would have concentrated on altering any spells that come through (assuming that it is difficult but possible to alter a spell cast by another person) and attacking with similar spells or telekinesis.

Combined with the power of a Vorlon ship, this would have been something to be confident about. Their individual ability to attack may have been equal, but Kosh had the advantage of having a vastly better ship.</font></td></tr></table>

Anyway, this is how I suspect it *might* be. I have no evidence, simply guesses.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 10, 2001).]
 
In reply to Lennier:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>

Summoning Light Page 348, top

"It can destroy you long before you are in range to use your weapon.

That, in all likelihood, was true."


The thing is that, while extremely powerful, Galen's Spell of Destruction has limits. The range limit was explored on the pages 298 & 299. There's also the limit of the size of sphere he can make, 15 feet in diameter.

If Galen would have tried to destroy Kosh's ship, regardless of the outcome, all the mages would have been destroyed.

</font></td></tr></table>



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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:

Spoilers for the Technomage Trilogy:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>He managed to kill several Shadows with his spell of destrction. Yes, it was by surprise, but they basically did nothing to stop him. They basically let themselves be killed, instead of attacking him either telepathically, telekinetically or with spells like his own.

Why did they consider Galen so important? Important enough to give their own lives for getting him alive? Was it truly so that the Shadow way of thinking... is so different that they were unable to teach the younger races how to use the tech?

This would explain wanting Galen very badly -- he would be the key to getting an army of several hundred beings with abilities of destruction comparable to the First Ones. Comparable, but not necessarily better -- for Kosh parked its ship on Galen's way with a healthy amount of confidence.</font></td></tr></table>


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>




<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> I don't think they did consider Galen so important. Perhaps the Spell of Destruction is their most powerful weapon, and even the Shadows themselves have no way to shield against it, once it is cast.

Their method of protecting against a mage going rogue (going against them), was their method of shutting off all tech in the mage. See Summoning Light, pages 256, 257, & 262.


Kosh was playing a dangerous game, and if Blalock hadn't ordered him to stop (to verbally shake Galen out of it), Galen would have attacked Kosh's ship, if it was in range. See Summoning Light, Page 312 (middle), and page 303.


If Kosh would have stayed out of Galen's range (somewhere beyond 1/4 mile; See Summoning Light pages 298 & 299), and fired, Galen, Alwyn, and Blaylock would be dead.

</font></td></tr></table>



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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
Thank you, KoshN. I must have not remembered that part.
smile.gif


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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
Thank you, KoshN. I must have not remembered that part.
smile.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, for getting me looking at the books again. I really need to re-read them before I delve into "Invoking Darkness" on 11/27. I want to have the first two books fresh in my mind when I start Book 3.

It shouldn't be too hard, since the first two books are hard to put down.

smile.gif
smile.gif
smile.gif


------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
Why we can't just agree that they really are the first ones
laugh.gif
cool.gif
.

------------------
Logical thinking - Perfect weapon
 
Just a quick note, just because A beats B and B beats C does not always mean A beats C. The Vorlons were incredibly hard to kill by a younger race because of their first one tech and abilities. The Shadows killed an aware Kosh because they also had first one tech and abilities along with seriously outnumbering him. This does not mean that it is unreasonable for a younger race to kill a small number of surprised Shadows. Perhaps the nature of the Shadows usual defenses, which seem to rely on steal, simply leave them more vulnerable than other first ones.

Any sports fan can tell you matchups and overconfidence can create results that would be unthinkable judging by common opponents.

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"I used to be known as Eric, the waiter with hands for hands." The waiter with stubs for hands in The Kids in the Hall
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Why we can't just agree that they really are the first ones.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GeoKuutio, we sorta DO agree that the Shadows, Vorlons, Zog and a few of their contemporaries are the First Ones.
That's how they were referred to by all the races that knew anything about them.
It was assumed by the Minabari, humans, etc. that these reaces were the oldest intelligences in the universe.

It wasn't until Sheridan met Lorien that anyone knew there was another race that was even Older.
Lorien's race was the Vorlons & Shadows "babysitter" and Teachers.
But, as I said above, we had no way of knowing that prior to Lorien spilling the beans.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "Yes, of course I care.
It's a terrible thing when your children fight.
I warned the others, but they didn't listen.
They never listen."

Lorien in Babylon 5:"Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps the nature of the Shadows usual defenses...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My take on this: the defenses possible for a Shadow are probably at least as good as those available for a Vorlon in his encounter suit (maybe even better - they seem a bit more warlike than our Vorlons, and they Are older... and unlike their ships, where they evidently prefered quantity over quality, it's their own butt in this case). Remember, they created the Technomages "magic tech", and certainly reserved even greater capabilities for themselves.
But twice we see Shadows hurt by simple PPG's.
1 - On Z'ha'dum the Shadow didn't even bother with invisibility, since it "knew" Sheridan has left his PPG with Anna, and was (over)confident he couldn't hurt it...
2 - On Centauri Prime the Shadow was trying to be sneaky, and was (over)confident Londo and his guards had no idea it even existed (and it seems likely that activating their build-in defense systems would create at least some energy signature that would give them away to the Centauris big sensors... - see similar with Vorlon tech in "Interludes & Examinations" when Kosh strikes Sheridan and the battle with Ulkesh in "Falling toward Apotheosis")


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Any sports fan can tell you matchups and overconfidence can create results that would be unthinkable judging by common opponents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly.
Though in these cases it wasn't overconfidence alone - after all, they had reason to be confident (as Ulkesh was with B5 security). Surprise played a very large part in these events, too.
In all these cases, had the Shadows known (or at least gotten the chance to gather their wits and activate their combat systems), their opponents wouldn't have stood a chance (just like Garibaldi and his men against the Vorlon...).
As I wrote, they made the Technomages, and they seem to like implanting bio-organic technology... so it stands to reason the systems they use for their own enhancement are much better than the ones they gave the technomages (and you surely can imagine how hard it is to take down a full-power TM like Galen who knows you're coming... tough a surprise shot to the head will kill him dead too - unless he spots the sniper in time. Our Shadows didn't - well, actually they did, but didn't realize the danger.)

Same goes for the scene where Galen deals with a few Shadows in the second book - they didn't realize he was there at first, were too surprised when they did spot him, and were in his spell before they could get over their surprise and react.
As for Galen shooting down the ShadowShip... that must have been a lucky shot, otherwise these ships would never have been the danger they were in the show. (actually that was a writer fucking up things with "variable strength opponents", but what the hell... explain it with "lucky shot" and enjoy the story without letting it ruin the rest of the universe)

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShadowScout:

As for Galen shooting down the ShadowShip... that must have been a lucky shot, otherwise these ships would never have been the danger they were in the show. (actually that was a writer fucking up things with "variable strength opponents", but what the hell... explain it with "lucky shot" and enjoy the story without letting it ruin the rest of the universe)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spoiler for Technomage Trilogy

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Anna's first ship with his Spell of Destruction (SoD)? Lucky shot?? I completely disagree. That was the first time a Shadow ship had experienced the SoD, and certainly the first time Anna had.
</font></td></tr></table>

Remember, the Shadow ships seem more susceptible to pain and shock than say Vorlon ships. That's probably because the pilot is "wired" into the ship, "is" the ship, and feels the pain.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel.
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/
 
It is also worth mentioning that they were at extremely close range (they were escaping with a flying platform and the ship had been excavating another ship) which doubtlessly enabled good target selection.

By this I mean that Galen could choose which part of the ship to cut away, and naturally targeted the centre -- where the essential parts are. It was enough even without knowing that this is where the person controlling the ship (well, to be more exact, controlled by the ship) is located.

When targeting a ship from outside with energy weapons, you have to cut through its armor first. When attacking at close range with a spell of destruction, you can immediately damage its vital parts. Which is what Galen did.

And I am quite sure it was a rather small battlecrab. At least I would not send a 3-kilometer monster version to do maintenance tasks in a city.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 13, 2001).]
 
Lennier - that's exactly what I meant.

An unexpected attack at just the right point to bring down a spaceship...

It only gets problematic when such things as technomages blowing starships out of the sky with a thought get everyday occurences... With lot's of effort and some supporting stuff (like a exvacation site they can use as parabolic reflector...) it's acceptable, otherwise it strains credibility a bit too much...

(After all, it isn't StarTrek, where it's raining god-like and almost-god-like beings who can endanger our hero starship all on their own right and left, right?)

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!
 
The shadows are even older than the vorlons and walkers!Look at the ship design!Vorlon ships hulls and bioarmour are far less advanced because visually you can see it has the form of beeing constructed!The shadows on the other hand have the apperance of growing there ships whilst the vorlons build hulls and graft there armour on.

Who says the shadows arent telepathic!In the hour of the wolf the speak to the crew of the whitestar in the voices of there fathers and convbince them to land the ship!

Back the vessels it is true that a vorlon star dreadnaught detroyed a shadow battlecrab with one shot in into the fire but the shadows where doing equal amounts of damage on the vorlons!

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We live for the one!We die for the one!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anla'Shock:
The shadows are even older than the vorlons and walkers!Look at the ship design!Vorlon ships hulls and bioarmour are far less advanced because visually you can see it has the form of beeing constructed!The shadows on the other hand have the apperance of growing there ships whilst the vorlons build hulls and graft there armour on.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vorlon ships and structures ARE grown.

Check out the short stories Hidden Agendas and The Nautilus Coil for info. on Vorlon ships and structures growing.

Spoiler for Hidden Agendas:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Ulkesh's ship grows back together after having been blown to bits. Sheridan pilots it. It and Lyta destroy the Shadowtech embedded in Ivanova's Warlock-Class Destroyer. All Warlocks incorporate Shadowtech in their design. Only Ivanova's Warlock is free of it.</font></td></tr></table>


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Who says the shadows arent telepathic!In the hour of the wolf the speak to the crew of the whitestar in the voices of there fathers and convbince them to land the ship!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was "The Eye" not a Shadow being. Who's to say that the Shadows haven't found a way to telepathically communicate via artificial, technological means, as opposed to the Vorlon's biological means (introducing the telepathic gene into various races DNA)??

The representation of "The Eye" that we saw, could be either Ivanova's, Delenn's, and Lyta's perception of the telepathic projection, or a holographic-style projection.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Back the vessels it is true that a vorlon star dreadnaught detroyed a shadow battlecrab with one shot in into the fire but the shadows where doing equal amounts of damage on the vorlons!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Interludes and Examinations, we see a Vorlon Transport destroy a Shadow Battlecrab with one shot.

In Interludes and Examinations, we see several Vorlon Fighters gang up on and destroy a Shadow Battlecrab with many shots.

In Interludes and Examinations, we see a Shadow Battlecrab barely able to scratch one tendril of a Vorlon Battlecruiser with one shot.

In Into the Fire we see Shadow Battlecrabs destroying Vorlon Fighters with a single shot.

In Into the Fire we see several other First One ships (none are Shadow vessels) destroy a Vorlon Planet Killer with a many shots.


Now, I'd have to go back and do a frame-by-frame check to be absolutely sure, but right now, I don't recall any Vorlon Transports or Battlecruisers being destroyed by Shadow vessels in Into the Fire (hit, yes, but not seriously affected let alone destroyed).

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 2002 on The Sci-Fi Channel. http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/


[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited November 14, 2001).]
 
Okay here we go!I never said that the shadows were telepathic i just think that we should'nt count that out!The vorlon ships are almost shaped and moulded as you would build one of the younger races ships!They almost appear to have some sort of solid material hull under the organic armour!The shadow vessels on the other hand did indeed destroy a Vorlon Star Dreadnaught in the backround a couple of seconds into the battle!There vessels are not even made of organic tech as used on the vorlon ships evidently they use some kind of Nanochanical technollogy!Another reason i belive the are older is that the vessels do not use a jump point to enter hyperspace the Phase into it they have also developed a jump point disrupter which shows the have even more understanding of hyperspace physics than the vorlons!The vorlons also use some kind of Antimatter drive propulsion system as you can see by the fact that vorlon vessels produce engine emmissions the shadow vessels do not!

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We live for the one!We die for the one!
 
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