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Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don't Want To See...

Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

If you want an extreme example of DBARS (Discussion Board Anal Retention Syndrome), check out the Star Wars Forums.

:p

Mind you, they do have a significantly greater number of posters than we do here, so it probably makes sense.
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

All I basically said was that these topics had recently been discussed (and they had) and I tried to give the person some direction on where to find them even. I wasn't trying to brush off anyone or stifle discussion.

The topic had literally just been discussed, so I thought I was being helpful in directing him to a place where he could read up on it rather than making everyone read everyone's very recently thought out ideas again.

Not to mention, the thread was started in B5.world, whereas all other discussion on TMoS was in B5.related, so I just thought that maybe he had missed that.

If the topic had been an old one that might be difficult to find, I wouldn't have minded starting any kind of new thread about it. But this was very recent, so it seemed much simpler to direct him.

Ok, I'm repeating myself now...oops... :D

Anyway, no harm meant...just trying to help.

I know my posts can be...ahem...a bit lengthy :p (Who me?) :confused: :LOL: Didn't want everyone to have to filter through them again. :D

Peace,
CE
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

But B5 doesn't have the kind of fandom waiting eagerly for a B5 movie that the Star Wars franchise has, to its advantage.

But neither did Star Wars before the first film was released, before there was a franchise. And that still managed to be a blockbuster. People keep writing about B5 as if the only way a film can make money if it is the sequel to another film that made money - which is obvious nonsense because somewhere along the line there has to be an original film that wasn't a sequel and which still managed to make money. (Because if it didn't, there wouldn't be any sequels)

Millions of people who have never heard of B5 may go to a B5 movie if the trailers look cool enough, the story and the characters seem engaging and their friends tell them it is worth a few bucks and a couple of hours of their time. Just the way people who had never heard of Star Wars or Titanic or The Terminator did. All this hand-wringing over the size of B5 fandom is beside the point. Spiderman and X-Men did not succeed based on their comic book followings, but on their qualties as films and their ability to attract filmgoers who had never read the comic books. B5:TMoS will also sink or swim based on its perceived quality as a film - without reference to its televison incarnation.

The most successful of the Trek features (Khan, Voyage Home, First Contact) were precisely those that were accessible to non-Trekkers and were based on self-contained stories that didn't rely on an intimate knowledge of the series.

(Those who think that any Teep War or Centauri or other B5 film would need gobs and gobs of back-story would do well to watch First Contact, where the essentials of Picard's connection to the Borg are explained in a couple of flashbacks, a brief dream sequence and a few lines of dialogue. Granted there are whole episodes and several years of stories that cover the Borg, and knowledge of them certainly enhances the experience of watching First Contatct but none of it is necessary to enjoying the Ahab vs. the Whale storyline or understanding the threat the Borg represent. For that the audience doesn't need any more information than is presented in the film itself.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

I suppose what worries me the most is that B5 seemed to always have a loyal, but limited, audience on television.

I hope JMS doesn't have to ruin what made B5 great to get it to appeal to a wider audience. I agree that there are many stories he could tell that wouldn't necessarily depend on a person's prior knowledge of the series. Particularly something to do with the telepaths or the technomages.

I just hope the announcement that it's a film trailer for a new cookbook: "The Making of Spoo" comes out soon. :p
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

JJ, I agree that perhaps the distinction between the general and the specific got blurred in this case. My point was a general one. I don't have a problem at all with this thread, and in fact responded to it long before the issue of "recycling arguments" was raised. So I will leave it at that, and no offense to any posters was ever intended.
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

I suppose what worries me the most is that B5 seemed to always have a loyal, but limited, audience on television.

I hope JMS doesn't have to ruin what made B5 great to get it to appeal to a wider audience. I agree that there are many stories he could tell that wouldn't necessarily depend on a person's prior knowledge of the series. Particularly something to do with the telepaths or the technomages.
One of the genuinely attractive features about The Gathering was that it was so clearly a story that was just a slice out of the lives of charactors that had quite an unexplained backstory. The best writers work this way, and this could certainly work for a film.

I think the main problem B5 had in collecting a larger fan base was the ephemeral nature of the "network" it aired on. Any given station aired it when they thought it proper, and many of them pre-empted or moved it around in a rather willy-nilly-schedule-around-the-bigger-stuff fashion. I know when I originally saw it it seemed to have no real "time slot" except that it was more likely to be on Thursdays at 8:00 PM (if memory serves) than at any other given time, but I had to always watch out for the real time.

My concerns are not story-related per se, they are about whether or not JMS can and will get the best talent for presenting the story in the medium and then listen to them. B5 is such a personal thing with him (for reasons easy to understand) that I worry that a clash of egos could ruin the whole project and doom us forever to watching the DVDs for "the real stuff."
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

I suppose what worries me the most is that B5 seemed to always have a loyal, but limited, audience on television.

But we have to understand why it had a "loyal but limited" audience on television, and then decide if the reasons thatproduced that result in one medium are likely to do the same in another.

B5 had a much smaller audience than something like Trek for four main reasons: 1) For its entire run it was never available to 100% of U.S. households, and it probably had similar problems in other countries. 2) For all but its final year it had changing and lousy timeslots, which further limited its potential audience. 3) It had a complex continuing storyline. This is one of the glories of the series, but also one of its liabilities. I still haven't watched a single season of 24 "live" because it was too inconvenient to keep up with it week to week, and too annoying to miss an episode. So I've watched on DVD, where I'm still a season behind. Some people just don't like to "come in on the middle" of a story, and resisted watching the show for that reasons. 4) There was an active anti-B5 propaganda campaign against the show in the fan community, and too many people believed the Trek party-line that the show was a low-budget DS9 knock-off and never bothered to watch it.

The question assumes two things:

1) There is something inherent in the kind of story B5, rather than the circumstances in which it was made and the nature of arc vs. non-arc TV, that limits its audience.

2) To make it more appealing to more people the show would have to change.

I think we've dealt with (1) And if (1) isn't true, there's no reason to believe that (2) is. The only thing necessary to get a bigger audience for B5 on the big screen is to put it in front of a bigger audience.

Trek was never a big hit by the standards of network television in the mid to late 60s. It was a marginal show always on the edge of cancellation. Yet the films based on it did very well at the box office - and without abandoning the core of the show. Arguably the reverse was true. The further they strayed from the feel and spirit of the original - as in all the odd-numbered movies - the worse they did, while the closer they came to the sheer fun and enthusiasm of the original - most notably Khan and The Voyage Home for TOS (First Contact for Next Gen) - the better they did. The truer Trek was to itself, the more accessible it became to non-fans. Interesting paradox, non?

Again, we're navel-gazing about the size of the TV audience, when this is almost certainly going to be completely irrelevant to the box office success of the film.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

Again, we're navel-gazing about the size of the TV audience, when this is almost certainly going to be completely irrelevant to the box office success of the film.
i knew somebody was eventually going to say what I was trying to say well enough for me to understand it myself! :LOL:

This is the crucial point: no one went to see any of The Lord of the Rings movies based on the share of the TV audience for the show. Similarly, no one will go to (or fail to go to) see any B5 movie because the TV share of the show. They will go if it looks good. The "fan base" is almost totally irrelevant because "they" outnumber "us" so completely.
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

While I quite agree with what you and Joe say, I think the point some people were trying to make is that the fan base alone could make a film, with a budget modest by Hollywood standards, profitable. That may be true, but obviously, for the film to be a real box office success, especially with a moderate to large budget, it must go way beyond the fan base. And, as Joe explained, well it could. I certainly hope so!
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

Spiderman and X-Men did not succeed based on their comic book followings, but on their qualties as films and their ability to attract filmgoers who had never read the comic books. B5:TMoS will also sink or swim based on its perceived quality as a film - without reference to its televison incarnation.

And the marketing campaigns. Let us hope that Warner Brothers does a bang-up job of marketing for this. My fingers are crossed tighter than Bester's hand was clenched.

(Those who think that any Teep War or Centauri or other B5 film would need gobs and gobs of back-story would do well to watch First Contact, where the essentials of Picard's connection to the Borg are explained in a couple of flashbacks, a brief dream sequence and a few lines of dialogue. Granted there are whole episodes and several years of stories that cover the Borg, and knowledge of them certainly enhances the experience of watching First Contatct but none of it is necessary to enjoying the Ahab vs. the Whale storyline or understanding the threat the Borg represent. For that the audience doesn't need any more information than is presented in the film itself.)

And for those who do not have that backstory in their minds, the movie might entice them to see the rest of B5. ;)
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

Spiderman and X-Men did not succeed based on their comic book followings, but on their qualties as films and their ability to attract filmgoers who had never read the comic books. B5:TMoS will also sink or swim based on its perceived quality as a film - without reference to its televison incarnation.

And the marketing campaigns. Let us hope that Warner Brothers does a bang-up job of marketing for this. My fingers are crossed tighter than Bester's hand was clenched.

I have confidence that WB will market this very well. They have the entire future of a franchise that they clearly see as viable depending on it.

(Those who think that any Teep War or Centauri or other B5 film would need gobs and gobs of back-story would do well to watch First Contact, where the essentials of Picard's connection to the Borg are explained in a couple of flashbacks, a brief dream sequence and a few lines of dialogue. Granted there are whole episodes and several years of stories that cover the Borg, and knowledge of them certainly enhances the experience of watching First Contatct but none of it is necessary to enjoying the Ahab vs. the Whale storyline or understanding the threat the Borg represent. For that the audience doesn't need any more information than is presented in the film itself.)

And for those who do not have that backstory in their minds, the movie might entice them to see the rest of B5. ;)

Don't think for a second that this is not a part of WB's strategy. One feeds the other. :D
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

The best of both worlds can be achieved. Just look at Star Trek 2. Both Star Trek die-hards and casual fans typically agree that this is the best Star Trek film even made. It is so well known, in fact, that it is a running joke quoted throughout a Seinfeld episode.

While pleasing to the fans, tying into Star Trek lore (no arc to tie into!), it also managed to have wide, long lasting appeal to non-die hards.

This is what I hope JMS manages to pull off if TMoS is, in fact, a feature film.

Regards,

-Tim
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

Me as well...hey, what about Nick Meyer to direct? Not so big he's egotistical, visionary and solid, very respectful of SF creator's visions...and look what he did for Trek (and wasn't a Trek fan). That one I would be happy with. :D
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

Me as well...hey, what about Nick Meyer to direct? Not so big he's egotistical, visionary and solid, very respectful of SF creator's visions...and look what he did for Trek (and wasn't a Trek fan). That one I would be happy with. :D

Who's that CE? I just checked IMDB, and came up with 2 Nick Meyer, 1 Nicholas Meyers, and 1 Nick Meyers, none of which show as director for a Star Trek Film.
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

I just checked IMDB, and came up with 2 Nick Meyer, 1 Nicholas Meyers, and 1 Nick Meyers, none of which show as director for a Star Trek Film.

Nicholas Meyer at IMDB

The aboved linked to page from IMDB does list Nicholas Meyer as the director for both The Wrath of Khan and The Undiscovered Country. Additionally, it lists him as the screenplay writer of Undiscovered Country and as an uncredited writer of Khan.


EDIT: Eeek! I got beaten to posting again. I just have to always go and be so long-winded all the dang time!
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

EDIT: Eeek! I got beaten to posting again. I just have to always go and be so long-winded all the dang time!

Sorry! :( :eek: :D
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

Thanks VacantLook and Demon, don't know why it didn't seem to work the first time???

Yeah, he looks quite acceptable.
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

Me as well...hey, what about Nick Meyer to direct?

An inspired choice. He also knows how to get the most production value out of every dollar the studio gives him and has a rep for creative problem solving both in pre-production and on the stage. I think he'd do a terrific job and treat both the material and the creator with the respect they're due. Let's hope someone at Warner Bros. is smart enough to consider the idea.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: Babylon 5: TMOS - What I Don\'t Want To See...

I was trying to guide someone a bit...sorry if I came across rude, it wasn't my intention. It appears you've been registered since 10/10/03 but haven't been around much...I was merely attempting to help.

CE

ColonyEarth, sorry for the delay in my response. I was away on business over the weekend and I didn't get back to my computer until late Tuesday/early Wednesday morning.

Actually I wasn't trying to sound harsh in my post either. I was just trying to address the issues you had brought up and explain my reasoning. Perhaps I was too direct and you interpreted that as being impolite. (It's a good thing I edited the post in question because, on initially reviewing that earlier message even I thought it then sounded harsh! Again, that never was the intention.)

GaribaldisHair and Grumbler,

Both of your posts on the topic of board ettiqutte seem to assume that a recent thread exists of a similar topic subject heading. As I stated in the message to CE, I would dispute that assumption. The thread headings in question are titled, "A new JMS message and hint 4/29," "TMoS casting guessing game" and "JMS in New Jersey." Personally, before the issue was brought up by CE, I had no interest in the middle thread topic, specifically speculative casting, yet, upon review, that is the thread that is probably most closely related to this thread. As I mentioned, I would argue that each of those three threads addresses related, but different topics.
 

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