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Babylon 5 Books

Given that the books don't appear to have sold as well as Del Rey would have liked at the time they were originally printed, I doubt that they would go to the trouble and expense of re-printing even if they still had the license.

If they didn't sell well, why are some of them so damned hard to find now? Did they print fewer of Legions of Fire Book III and The Passing of the Techno-mages Book II than they did the others in those trilogies?
 
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If they didn't sell well, why are some of them so damned hard to find now? Did they print fewer of Legions of Fire Book III and The Passing of the Techno-mages Book II than they did the others in those trilogies?

I was wondering this as well. Perhaps they decided to cut their losses and do a smaller run on Book III?

EDIT: I guess I don't really know if there were any "losses" :p I'm just trying to figure out why there's such a disparity in availability.
 
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Wish I knew the answer ... I just recall someone from Del Rey stating that further B5 books (after the trilogies) would be dependent on sales picking up from where they were. My guess is that they probably didn't have "losses" to cut since, as a licensee, they could presumably have not bothered with the technomage trilogy at all if sales of the previous trilogies were poor, they just didn't feel that the volume of sales was such that it justified any further interest in the licence once it had expired.

This post from JMS probably gives a reasonable picture of how much interest they had in the B5 books overall, in any event.
 
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Having worked in book publishing some years ago, for a large house (larger than Del Rey), and specifically in the department that tracked sales figures in order to advise other departments about how many books should be printed and how many books of a certain title should be 'scrapped,' I can tell you that they probably did print less of book III if they didn't like the sales figures on books I and II (or worse, they printed the same amount but then scrapped a large percentage of them). Publishers don't sit around and think, "But gosh, if we printed (for example) 250,000 copies of books I and II, we can't print only 50,000 of book III, because that'll leave 200,000 readers without the ability to finish the trilogy!" Decisions are made based on sales. Only. Period.

So, they probably printed less of book III, so you had less new copies around for those who wanted it. Plus, you're getting more readers than your initial print run with a book like this because there's a culty sort of fan following, and when people get into B5, they slowly catch up with everything, including the novels, by buying used copies here and there. Most people would buy a used copy of book I to see if they like it before investing in an entire triology. So again, you are getting more and more readers of book I, and eventually book II, and with less new stock of book III to begin with, it gets rarer and harder to find and more precious with each new generation of fans (and I don't know what the turnaround time is on a 'generation' in fandom, but one could probably make some reasonably educated guess).

That's why book III costs so much.

And for those of you who wonder why the publisher stopped printing it and let their license lapse if the books are in such great demand, it isn't. It seems to be because of (1) the supply and demand I described above kicking the book price up higher and higher; and (2) the fact that you're unnaturally aware of what's going on within this fandom, so it just seems like everybody on the planet wants the book. But it's really not that many people.

Amy
 
I can never work out if I'm horrified with myself, or perversely proud of the fact that I spent £100 on eBay to get Legions of Fire III, and get it fast. Needless to say, even though I'm another UK B5er, I'm reluctant to even let anyone else TOUCH the book let alone borrow it! :^D
 
Wish I knew the answer ... I just recall someone from Del Rey stating that further B5 books (after the trilogies) would be dependent on sales picking up from where they were. My guess is that they probably didn't have "losses" to cut since, as a licensee, they could presumably have not bothered with the technomage trilogy at all if sales of the previous trilogies were poor, they just didn't feel that the volume of sales was such that it justified any further interest in the licence once it had expired.

This post from JMS probably gives a reasonable picture of how much interest they had in the B5 books overall, in any event.

From my email correspondence with Del Rey:

Monday, May 06, 2002 10:24 AM:
We're happy with the way the Technomage trilogy has been received, but I'm afraid we don't release sales figure.

...and one year later...

Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:34 PM:
Did the recent three Babylon 5 trilogies (Psi Corps, Legions of Fire, & Technomage) not sell well enough for Del Rey to consider future, NEW Babylon 5 or better yet, CRUSADE novels or short stories?

Novels are probably the only way we'll ever get a satisfactory resolution of the Crusade storyline. Fans have been left hanging since September of 1999.

It's a combination of waning sales and contract negotiations..... However, the readers haven't been buying the books in huge numbers, so it's tough to keep things moving without the readers out there supporting us.

So, they expected sales to STAY strong, and apparently there were just not enough of us to support that.

Regarding what JMS said about stealth books, I agree with him, and asked Del Rey about that as well. Here's what they said:

Wednesday, August 22, 2001 5:19 PM
We're in the process of reviewing the sales patterns for the first two techno-mage novels, to help us determine whether or not there's enough demand to call for further new novels. Now that two of the techno-mage books are out, we're beginning to get reasonable data that will help us plan for the future.

We certainly make no secret of these releases--each one is fully spotlighted in the catalog we use to sell our novels into the book stores, and we announce each book via ads appearing in science fiction trade publications like Locus Magazine. We also announce each and every one via our internet newsletter and on our web site, posting sample chapters to attract new readers. And we spread the word via our staff and displays at the major summer conventions, including DragonCon, GenCon, and San Diego ComicCon, with a total attendance of more than 100,000 fans.

Unfortunately, as you noted, publications that used to help us get the word out have themselves been cancelled--magazines like Amazing Stories and the Babylon 5 fan magazine. And once the books reach the stores, it's completely up to the stores themselves to decide how they display the new releases. We can't dictate to them how they run their stores.

Friday, August 24, 2001 8:12 AM
I really meant in displays in bookstores. Something that attracts attention. Usually even *I*, a B5 fan, don't have an easy time finding B5 books in bookstores (especially Barnes and Noble). See below (set off in asterisks) where I just explained to somebody else, what I usually find in bookstores:


**************************************
Were I not a B5 fan on the newsgroups (e.g. rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated), *I* would not know that the books were even out there. In bookstores, the B5 books are almost always in spine-on display (almost never in face-on) display, and NEVER, EVER in their own display, and are often categorized by Author (so they're scattered all over the place). In contrast, Star Trek books (even "Voyager" books) are often in face-on display, and are all together in one place.

Whenever I go in a bookstore, the first thing I do is to put the B5 books in face-on display, if possible (if any are in stock and if *I* can find 'em). Sometimes I even put the glut of Trek books (especially Voyager books) that are in face-on display, into spine-on display. ;-)

At my local Waldenbooks, they always get in 7 copies of the latest B5 book, and they're gone in 2 or 3 days, tops. Then, they get 1 more copy in, for the shelves. Right now, my local Waldenbooks has zero Psi Corps books, one copy of Centauri Prime book #3, and one copy of Technomage book #1 & #2.
That's it! They have a whole display unit of Trek books.
**************************************

Can you offer cardboard, Point-of-Sale display units, something to attract attention, and make them easier to find? How about hanging paper signs? Anything to make them stand out.

The situation with stores is simple--they choose what to do with the space, including display units and posters. Unless the demand for Babylon 5 skyrockets, they're more likely to use that valuable space for more high-profile releases. It's really up to them--as it should be, since they own the stores--and we wouldn't want to produce display materials that are going to end up on the floor of a storage closet.

So, basically, IMHO, they did a piss poor job of promoting the books and expected continued strong sales with meager effort on their part. Like I said, if I were not on these groups, I, a B5 fan, would not have known that these books even existed.
 
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How can you say they did a piss-poor job of promoting the books? They promoted at the largest cons (what's larger than SDCC and Dragon*Con?), and in the few likely magazines that are left. Do you think they ought to have been buying ad space in The New Yorker, or Rolling Stone? How could they justify that based on sales? As for in-store promotion, as he said, the bookstores decide what displays they want, and if bookstores by the hundreds were requesting end-of-aisle cardboard standups for Babylon 5 novels, they would have made them available.

I just think you're being unrealistic about this. There's quite a lot of money involved (licensing fee to WB, advance to authors so you get decent ones like Peter David and Gregory Keyes on board, manufacturing and promotion costs), and if people weren't buying the books, publishers are not going to throw good money after bad, no matter how well-written the books are, and no matter how long the fans have been left hanging (which matters to a book publisher not a jot). It's such a niche market it probably ought to be done through a 'boutique' imprint, but I think it's probably too much money for a small publisher to do, and the big publishers want high sales figures in return for their investment. Catch-22.

Amy
 
How can you say they did a piss-poor job of promoting the books? They promoted at the largest cons (what's larger than SDCC and Dragon*Con?), and in the few likely magazines that are left.

What percentage of B5 fans, or sci-fi fans in general, do you think get to take time off from their jobs to go to SDCC and/or Dragon*Con? How many people do you think are serious enough or have the means to travel half-way across the country to go to a con? 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? 1 in 10,000? If you want to reach outside of your current group of devotees, if you want to grow the fanbase instead of being content with the existing fanbase, if you want strong sales over a long period of time, how about you advertise in something more general, like, i don't know.... Time, The New York Times, etc.? How about a 15 second ad. on The Sci-Fi Channel to reach people who don't know the books exist, maybe with some of the cost borne by Warner Brothers and The Sci-Fi Channel? The goal is exposure which could lead to sales and increased viewership. Everybody benefits.

However, you have to spend money to make money. You can't timidly sit back, spend a penny, and spend that penny in the usual, formulaic way, and have any realistic hopes of making a million dollars.


Do you think they ought to have been buying ad space in The New Yorker, or Rolling Stone? How could they justify that based on sales?

New Yorker? No, only if they wanted to reach upper-crust snobs. Rolling Stone? Dunno. I was going for more general, not different niches.


As for in-store promotion, as he said, the bookstores decide what displays they want, and if bookstores by the hundreds were requesting end-of-aisle cardboard standups for Babylon 5 novels, they would have made them available.

Good grief, listen to yourself! :mad: Who takes the lead here? What bookstore is going to request anything, and based upon what, sales of some other publisher's (Dell's) previous set of mainly disappointing and low rated novels (Dell #1 thru 9)??? To not request anything is conceding defeat on the part of the bookstore, an almost complete lack of faith, getting only a half-dozen or so books of each trilogy in, and burying them in spine-on display, usually categorized by author, or in spine-on display in the sci-fi section where all Star Trek books and all Star Wars books are grouped together, etc., and when they sell, they sell, and if they don't sell, they get their covers ripped off and are returned. The bookstore is not going to take a chance. They're not interested in selling these books, per se. They're interested in selling books, in general. The ones who should be in selling these particular books is the publisher, and to a lesser extent, Warner Brothers and maybe The Sci-Fi Channel, that is, if anybody is looking to the future (and apparently nobody is).

To not supply anything (or at least make overtures in advance about the availability of display materials) is conceding defeat on the part of the publisher, and it shows an almost complete lack of faith, being content with staying withing the pre-existing niche and then complaining about lack of continued strong sales. The magnitude of the illogic there is astounding. These people ought to work for Fox Network or The Sci-Fi Channel. They'd fit right in. :p

Who should have been interested in promoting these books? The publisher. The publisher should have offered display materials (end-of-aisle cardboard standups and posters to put in stoor windows) in an effort to promote their books. The publisher should have made these overtures well in advance of the books street dates, and then if there was interest, had the materials made. And if they were creative, they'd try to do it with backing from other interested parties who might benefit (Warner Brothers, The Sci-Fi Channel, Space, etc.), to spread the risk around a bit.

I just think you're being unrealistic about this.
...and I think you're being a closed-minded, knee-jerk contrarian, who thinks a half-hearted, unimaginative, token effort at promotion is good enough and all that can be expected.


To sell books, people have to know that the books exist. They have to catch the eye of people (perhaps B5 fans, or sci-fi fans who are not on the net) as they are walking through a bookstore. Otherwise, you're just getting sales from people who already know the books exist, and who are searching for them. That's limiting your sales, selling to the people who are already sold on the product. To expect strong sales over the course of years, based upon the amount and type of promotion that Del Rey gave the B5 novels, that's what's unrealistic.


There's quite a lot of money involved (licensing fee to WB, advance to authors so you get decent ones like Peter David and Gregory Keyes on board, manufacturing and promotion costs), and if people weren't buying the books, publishers are not going to throw good money after bad, no matter how well-written the books are, and no matter how long the fans have been left hanging (which matters to a book publisher not a jot). It's such a niche market...

That's part of the problem. They should be trying to reach OUTSIDE of the niche market.


... it probably ought to be done through a 'boutique' imprint, but I think it's probably too much money for a small publisher to do, and the big publishers want high sales figures in return for their investment.

No, that's going the wrong way.


Catch-22.

That's usually the result when uncreative, unimaginative people have unrealistic expectations.
 
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Woah, Mac...look who's being kneejerk here. We've heard the tirade before, you know.

As for your "who goes to DragonCon and SDCC" question....oh...at *least* 50,000 of your closest friends. And each one of them probably knows at least a few other fans of various sorts. Not effective? I competely disagree, it was the *most* effective use of their advertising dollar possible because it immediately found the target audience and that audience would continue to spread the word.

Even if you yourself don't interract with other fans in person, you've certainly been around long enough to know that fans *love* to spread news about their favorite thing. Just look at how fast the word of B5:TLT spread. Within two days I was getting alerts quoting the news (usually either from my post or the AICN article) from all over the globe. All because of a panel at SDCC that had a few fans who wanted to share good news.

I keep seeing you rant on about going after a more general audience but that's *not* how advertising works. Never has been, never will be. Advertising's job is to identify a market and to put the product in front of that market. It would be a waste for them to advertise B5 in Better Homes and Gardens. You can complain all you want about it but they already have a system that works and gives them the most return for their money so as far as they're concerned the system ain't broke and they're not interested in fixing it.

Unless you get some satisfaction over the same old rants, I'd suggest that you give your blood pressure a rest.

Jan
 
...and I think you're being a closed-minded, knee-jerk contrarian, who thinks a half-hearted, unimaginative, token effort at promotion is good enough and all that can be expected.

No, I'm just a New Yorker-subscribing snob who happens to actually know something about the publishing business, and who lives on planet Earth.
 
Wow, I went looking for the Centauri Prime trilogy 2 years ago and ONLY found the last one in a bookstore (the other two I had to order used on Amazon--the second one being the hardest for me to find for some reason.)

I remember they had two copies. I wish I had gotten both. It was at some store like Barnes and Noble, too. I should try and keep an eye out for them. I know a few really good used bookstores here. It's amazing what happens in a few years. I never knew some of these were so hard to find.
 
Woah, Mac...look who's being kneejerk here. We've heard the tirade before, you know.

As for your "who goes to DragonCon and SDCC" question....oh...at *least* 50,000 of your closest friends. And each one of them probably knows at least a few other fans of various sorts.

Alright, compare that to the millions of people who watched B5 (the ratings numbers). Even if it was only a million people who watched B5, and I'm pretty sure it was more than that, that's reaching 1 in 20, or 5% of B5 fans, and I doubt that all 50,000 at DragonCon and SDCC are B5 fans.

Not effective? I competely disagree, it was the *most* effective use of their advertising dollar possible because it immediately found the target audience and that audience would continue to spread the word.

Maybe it was a cost-effective way to reach some B5 and SF fans, what you're calling the target audience, but it's still essentially preaching to the choir, the people who are already B5 fans, or at least SF fans.

Even if you yourself don't interract with other fans in person, you've certainly been around long enough to know that fans *love* to spread news about their favorite thing.

And people who are not currently SF fans immediately put their walls up whenever they spot fans who *love* to spread news about their favorite thing, coming their way.


Just look at how fast the word of B5:TLT spread. Within two days I was getting alerts quoting the news (usually either from my post or the AICN article) from all over the globe. All because of a panel at SDCC that had a few fans who wanted to share good news.

And those of us who are on the net every day, who see that kind of thing are in the minority.


I keep seeing you rant on about going after a more general audience but that's *not* how advertising works. Never has been, never will be. Advertising's job is to identify a market and to put the product in front of that market.

And that leaves people out. Occasionally, they should cast a wider net.


It would be a waste for them to advertise B5 in Better Homes and Gardens. You can complain all you want about it but they already have a system that works and gives them the most return for their money so as far as they're concerned the system ain't broke and they're not interested in fixing it.

Unless you get some satisfaction over the same old rants, I'd suggest that you give your blood pressure a rest.

Jan

I'm not after Better Homes and Gardens, not another niche. I said "Time."
And yeah, I have to work at not caring.
 
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You can't really blame her for being curt, KoshN. You basically laid into her like she was Bonnie Hammer, and nobody deserves that, not even Hammer. Except Fox executives.
 
And yeah, I have to work at not caring.
Not at all. Never that. But perhaps you should spend your energy on the things you *can* change. Which, given your posts about having donated to the library and having contacted Jeanne Cavelos and discovering that she had some copies she could part with, you do very well.

Jan
 
I have to agree with KoshN here a lot although I don't want to fight with anybody :)

The only books I was aware of were the film and series tie ins.I only really started using the internet a couple of years ago and it took me a while to find this place so by the time I knew about them they were gone.If I had known about them I would have got them.

I heard about Crusade by chance and watched it.I had no idea why it stopped all of a sudden.

I had not even heard of Legend of the Rangers till I got more familiar with the internet.

I have a lot of friends who also enjoyed the show and knew nothing of any books or they too would of bought them.

On the other hand I saw In The Beginning advertised on Sky while I was living in Spain and promptly ordered it with my mother.As a result of this purchase I also ordered Thirdspace and River of Souls which were advertised with the video.

Anybody living in the UK should be able to order the books from their library however and if your local library doesn't have them then they will find one that does.It doesn't cost much :)
 
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The only books I was aware of were the film and series tie ins.I only really started using the internet a couple of years ago and it took me a while to find this place so by the time I knew about them they were gone.If I had known about them I would have got them.

I heard about Crusade by chance and watched it.I had no idea why it stopped all of a sudden.

I had not even heard of Legend of the Rangers till I got more familiar with the internet.

I have a lot of friends who also enjoyed the show and knew nothing of any books or they too would of bought them.

On the other hand I saw In The Beginning advertised on Sky while I was living in Spain and promptly ordered it with my mother.As a result of this purchase I also ordered Thirdspace and River of Souls which were advertised with the video.

Exactly. If somebody doesn't know that the books even exist, how are they going to buy them? If I hadn't been on the net, I would never have known about the three Del Rey trilogies. The guy who introduced me to Babylon 5 spends no time on the usenet newsgroups, and he didn't know about any of the B5 books, or the short stories in Amazing Stories and Babylon 5/Crusade Magazine. Another of my close friends at work was also into B5, and he didn't know the books or short stories existed, either. However, I made sure they knew. They both have copies on #7, #9, the novelizations, and the three Del Rey trilogies, and the six magazine issues containing the short stories.

However, both of them were already B5 fans, so these were not sales outside the existing fanbase. Neither of them has ever been to DragonCon or the SDCC, and I can say that it's highly unlikely that either of them will ever travel from the Pittsburgh, PA area to Atlanta or San Diego to attend those cons, so Del Rey's advertising at those cons. has no chance of reaching them.
 
You can't really blame her for being curt, KoshN. You basically laid into her like she was Bonnie Hammer, and nobody deserves that, not even Hammer. Except Fox executives.

...and TNT-Atlanta executives. :devil:
 

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