Why was Cusade so hated?

Recoil · Jan 2, 2002

Ok,

So there is one person

Not to pick you apart, but I think you should be aware of a few 'inaccuracies' in your remarks. This has been debated before on this site several times, and maybe you have read them, if so sorry. You may still have the same opinion, and that is cool too, but I would hate for you to go around believing a few things, when they are not the case.

Your #1 - Crusade was NOT a 'One-trick pony' show, and never was it supposed to be. JMS had commented numerous times that the Drakh plague was not the main focus of the show. As many pointed out, due to SiL we know that a cure WAS found already. So what would the interest be in watching a show when you know it gets cured? Because that wasn't what the main story was supposed to be about. As with B5, which started off and took a completely different angle by the end of season 1, Crusade was meant to take a different direction, its just that in 13 episodes you really never got to see it (other than a small clip or two). ALTHOUGH if you read the 3 unfilmed scripts (I have) 2 of those 3 start to give you signs of where it was going to be going, and it looked VERY interesting.

Your #2 - I wasnt a fan of it either

. But as was said above, Franke didn't hit his stride till later on in the series.

Some of your other points on stories and characters. The stories were sub-par because of TNT's influence mainly, which is why JMS pulled the plug. Think back to B5 and most of the first season's episodes were not great by any means, and the acting wasn't quite there either. As with any new series, it takes a bit for people to find their comfort zone and get things going well. I tried to get into B5 in its first run during season 1, and quickly gave up on it. It wasnt for a few years later catching some season 3 episodes that I gave it another try and I was SO glad I did. I wont ever make that mistake with another JMS show again!

Your #5 - Well yea, none of the first ones...or so we think. What there is though is the Apocolypse Box (god I cant spell), which is said to be just slightly older than the Vorlons I believe. What the hell is it? Who made it? What is it doing? Lots of first one-ish mystery there

Your #10 - as before, it was probably too early in the show to see what other races would be a part of it. Seeing as the Excalibur would have ties with the Rangers, I bet you would still see some Minbari later in the series. Plus, from the looks of things, Technomages would have been a big part of it. I always loved them and it would have made for some interesting episodes!

The rest of your stuff is, of course, your opinion. I just wanted to clear up that it was NOT a story about the Drakh plague, and that there were some other things that perhaps you werent aware of.

As I said above, I made the mistake of judging B5 on a couple Season 1 episodes when it first came out, and missed the series because of it. Luckily I caught it on Sci-Fi and got totally hooked. Those Season 1 episodes (while still probably my least favorite season) do have a different appeal now. I have a feeling Crusade would react in much the same way with you as B5 did with me. Who knows it may have grown on you

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

Recoil · Jan 2, 2002

hahahaha,

I go to all this effort to type up some comments and clarifications to his post, only to see a one sentance summary by G'Kar'e Eye.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

PsionTen · Jan 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Not to pick you apart, but I think you should be aware of a few 'inaccuracies' in your remarks. This has been debated before on this site several times, and maybe you have read them, if so sorry. You may still have the same opinion, and that is cool too, but I would hate for you to go around believing a few things, when they are not the case.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeez, a person can't even have an opinion without someone telling him he's wrong... Okay, have it your way. I'll be a drone and just agree that Crusade is the greatest show that ever was or will be... Happy?

Oh yeah

#1-- Regardless of who said what, this show was a one-trick pony. I saw 13 episodes and all them (to some degree) revolved around finding a cure to the drakh plague-- I call that a "one trick" pony.

#2-- I think the music sucked... why should I care why?

#5-- There were no first ones and I like the First ones.

#6-- There were no familiar aliens and I like the B5 aliens mores so than the B5 humans.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited January 02, 2002).]

Recoil · Jan 2, 2002

As I carefully stated, you can have whatever opinion you want. But the fact is you WERE wrong on a couple points. Your opinion of not liking Crusade is yours. But the facts you stated in your post...some of them WERE incorrect. Facts aren't a matter of opinion, and you listed several facts about the show that were not correct. That is what I was correcting.

G'KarsEye Reply: (just a guess)
'You aren't entitled to your own opinion, you are entitled to your own INFORMED opinion.'

(that is actually a quote from somewhere, I dont remember if its correct or not, but it seemed to fit something he might have said back)

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

PsionTen · Jan 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> But the fact is you WERE wrong on a couple points. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO, I WASN'T. You're just in all-fire rush to dispute an alternate viewpoint that you don't even realize what you're reading.

I will elaborate for you.

#1-- ONE-TRICK PONY: You say that I am wrong because JMS said somewhere that he intended to do... yada, yada, yada. I'm saying that all I ever saw on TV was a one-trick pony. Case closed.

#2-- ABSENCE OF ALIENS: You say that JMS may have included them somewhere along the line... I said that I didn't see any in the 13 episodes (that were actually produced). Case closed.

#3-- MUSIC: I say it sucked and you said something that I can't even remember right now. Case closed.

So, how was I wrong?
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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited January 02, 2002).]

Recoil · Jan 2, 2002

The story exists none the less. I thought I was pretty clear and polite in my original post by trying to open you up to details that you didn't know. Ok, what you may have seen looked like a 'one trick pony' but the story in its entirety is not like that, and I was filling you in on information you didn't have or know, not trying to change your opinion on what you saw. But since reading both of your replies since my original post and seeing as you put it like that, I defer to the previous statement:

There ARE acid trips that are more logical than that.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

GKarsEye · Jan 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> G'KarsEye Reply: (just a guess)
'You aren't entitled to your own opinion, you are entitled to your own INFORMED opinion.' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh golly, thanks, but I didn't come up with that one, nor did I use it. But I'm flattered, nonetheless.

People are also entitled to uninformed opinions. I mean, what can you do? People are also entitled to go online and troll message boards while waiting for their mothers to make their beds.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

KoshN · Jan 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
That was going to be my original point, because from what I've read so far ... the only person who should've responded to the question is me, since everyone else thinks the show was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not true. Things are not black & white, all or nothing. It's not that simple.
I have never seen anybody advocate that Crusade was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Crusade has never been the object of "unqualified" praise, certainly not by me.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

So I will now answer.

#1-- It's a one-trick pony show and I hate one-trick pony shows. The purpose is to find the cure for the Drakh plague ... once that happens, why should I care anymore?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you should watch and find out. B5 wasn't the story of the Narn/Centauri conflict either. Maybe by the time the first 13 episodes of B5 had aired, you could already see all that was coming thru year 5. Funny, I couldn't. If TNT, had not screwed the pooch, and had let us see one entire season, you'd be singing a different tune now.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#2-- The music sucked. It's nice that some of you have defended it, but it truly sucked.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, that's your opinion. My opinion is that I've heard music that truly sucked, and Crusade's music didn't. Crusade's music was just different, and I got used to it. If it had truly sucked, that would not have been possible. If it would have been rap, I could agree with you. That would truly suck, and would prevent me from being able to even watch the show.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#3-- The acting was far from even B5 quality.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only where Dr. Chambers was concerned. The rest were fine, IMHO. Lochley, a longtime provoker of winces, got better on Crusade.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#4-- The stories sucked --- (I only saw that X-Files rip-off once and it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree with the overall comment that "the stories sucked." Again, it would have helped if we'd been able to see an entire season, and if TNT hadn't screwed with things.

The only thing I disliked about the X-Files homage was the alien headgear. It looked cheap and phony. The rest was fine. CSM had some great lines.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#5-- No Vorlons, No Shadows, No Old Ones
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're gone. Get over it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#6-- Screwed up continuity (and I don't care why)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fine. Real life intruded on the story. If you can't look past the obvious flaws caused by TNT, and see some of the good stuff in Crusade, that's your problem.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#7-- No Ivanova
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She's gone. Get over it. Maybe after time heals the wounds a bit more, she'll be allowed back into the B5 universe. Probably not, but I hope it's possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#8-- Excaliber is a phallic symbol and I hate all phallic symbols except my own.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this, we didn't need to know.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#9-- How gay is that 10-second recharge thingamijigy?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 60 second power buildup after firing the main guns? or are you referring to the recharge time of the Excalibur's jump engines. The later started to bug me (e.g. in Each Night I Dream of Home).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#10-- No Minbari, No Centauri, No Narns
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't you see the Minbari Ranger (The Needs of Earth)? There might have been a few other sightings but I can't remember them at the moment.

Didn't you catch the references in Racing the Night (the Brakiri, Narn, Vree, Centauri ship hulls), and in Chambers' comments?

Who knows how many more we'd have seen if we'd gotten a full season, and no TNT notes?

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Recoil · Jan 2, 2002

I wanna say it was Sherlock Holmes or someone famous like that who said that quote. It always stuck with me. But I knew it wasn't the 'soon to be somewhat famous' GKarsEye.

Yes, and after his second reply, I got the distinct impression that 'trolling messageboards' looking to stir up trouble was the real answer to his 'why am I here' question. In any event its not worth my effort replying to this one anymore. Boy we took this kind of off topic. Someone should lock this mofo...

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

KoshN · Jan 2, 2002

Sorry, didn't see it went over onto page 2.

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited January 02, 2002).]

KoshN · Jan 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#1-- Regardless of who said what, this show was a one-trick pony. I saw 13 episodes and all them (to some degree) revolved around finding a cure to the drakh plague-- I call that a "one trick" pony.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's their MISSION at the time we saw them. It is the reason for them being out there. If they would have had episodes that did not at least seem to be in pursuit of their mission at all, it would have looked like they didn't care about their mission and were going AWOL, and then, you'd be complaining about that.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#5-- There were no first ones and I like the First ones.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't have everything you want. Life goes on. Things change. I didn't like it when Kosh got killed in Interludes and Examinations, but you don't hear me harping on that. You've got to keep an open mind, and quit expecting things to be so simple, or for the show to be written only to satisfy you.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:

#6-- There were no familiar aliens and I like the B5 aliens mores so than the B5 humans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What, Minbari are not familiar? You're judging Crusade by 13 episodes. B5 was the U.N. in space and obviously you'd see a lot of aliens there, but the Excalibur is an ISA ship with an EA crew. How many familiar aliens did you see as crew on EA ships in Babylon 5? I don't remember any.

Remember, the Excalibur is searching further out for a cure. We're bound to see less of the aliens with which we're familiar. I'm sure we'd have come across Narn, Centauri (especially given their ties with the Drakh), Drazi, and Minbari, etc. from time to time, if we'd been given more than just 13 episodes.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

hypatia · Jan 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
Glad you liked 'em. There are more on my page under Photo Album Index

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use word for several reasons, not the LEAST of which is spell check. It shows when I don't use it! Also, I like to cut and paste the urls and the smilies. That's reason 2. Reason 3 is that I sometimes am splitting time between doing something actually useful and indulging myself here.

But mostly, yes I go to word when I want the spell check.

------------------
"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

KoshN · Jan 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by hypatia:
I use word for several reasons, not the LEAST of which is spell check. ... But mostly, yes I go to word when I want the spell check.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to do that, but it still didn't save from misspellings that were correctly spelled words, but not the words I wanted.

So, now I just type directly on the postings screen, and manually check it when I re-read it before sending.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Recoil · Jan 3, 2002

I feel the same way Hypatia does. Opinions are opinions. However, I'll be honest here, I am REALLY confused as to the actual NAME of this topic.

'Why was Crusade so hated'?

Who said it WAS hated? From the looks of all the people posting here begging for its return, and the very good ratings it got when Sci-Fi first ran the 13 episodes, I would not get the impression it was hated at all. My impression is that it is sorely MISSED. The only hating that I saw going on was JMS hating TNT

and the B5 fans hating TNT as well for taking away (in a roundabout way) another great JMS story.

While I am sure there are some diehard B5 fans that did hate Crusade, I would wager there aren't that many of them. Some may not have liked it, but hate is a very strong word. For that matter if you are looking for reasons as to why people did hate Crusade, coming to _THE_ best B5 (albeit the Rangers incarnation) fan and cast website around is probably not the place you are going to find those answers

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

hypatia · Jan 3, 2002

I went back and edited them out, KoshN. Thanks. I can't use ' or " when I cut and paste from Word, and I sometimes forget that!

I like the firefight smilies. Yes, the TNT suits really did a number on "Crusade".

------------------
"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

KoshN · Jan 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by hypatia:
I went back and edited them out, KoshN. Thanks. I can't use ' or " when I cut and paste from Word, and I sometimes forget that!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, just wanted to alert you incase something was going wrong with your software. I guess you use Word for the Spell Check?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by hypatia:

I like the firefight smilies.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you liked 'em. There are more on my page under Photo Album Index

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

PsionTen · Jan 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Who said it WAS hated?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was going to be my original point, because from what I've read so far ... the only person who should've responded to the question is me, since everyone else thinks the show was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

So I will now answer.

#1-- It's a one-trick pony show and I hate one-trick pony shows. The purpose is to find the cure for the Drakh plague ... once that happens, why should I care anymore?

#2-- The music sucked. It's nice that some of you have defended it, but it truly sucked.

#3-- The acting was far from even B5 quality.

#4-- The stories sucked --- (I only saw that X-Files rip-off once and it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.)

#5-- No Vorlons, No Shadows, No Old Ones

#6-- Screwed up continuity (and I don't care why)

#7-- No Ivanova

#8-- Excaliber is a phallic symbol and I hate all phallic symbols except my own.

#9-- How gay is that 10-second recharge thingamijigy?

#10-- No Minbari, No Centauri, No Narns

P.S. And before I get pounded by a dozen "what are you doing here" responses I suggest that you read the title of the thread.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

PsionTen · Jan 3, 2002

This is the last time I'll ever answer an open question.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

KoshN · Jan 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
This is the last time I'll ever answer an open question.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, if we don't agree with you, and/or can refute your statements, you take your ball and go home?

------------------
KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

hypatia · Jan 3, 2002

KoshN, I am one of the lucky ones. Not all, but most of my spelling and typing mistakes are caught by spell-check I think. I make fewer of the mistakes that spell-check and grammar check can’t spot. Mostly I just type too quickly I think.

In fairness, Psion did answer the question that was asked. He answered it with surprising rancor, but I think he was just answering the question. I do remember hearing something about (I thought JMS saying) “Crusade was as much about finding a cure to the plague as Babylon 5 was about Sinclair’s missing 24 hours”. I trust JMS’s writing enough to know he used B5 as a doorway to storytelling: all kinds of stories. I never would have expected “Passing through Gethsemane” within the premise of B5, either.

More than anything, I was so looking forward to more of a “Blakes-7” crew. NOT all military. NOT all happy to be together and certainly NOT a cohesive, cooperating kind of group. The personalities in the “Crusade” characters was what really made me look past the shows few weaknesses IMHO.

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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

Why was Cusade so hated?

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