Who would have lived and who would have died?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

(spoiler space for unfilmed Crusade scripts)
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Antony:
If you have read End of the Line you know that Gideon would have been shot. I think Gideon would have stayed dead and Lochley would have taken over as captain. Otherwise, why have two captains on the show?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I must respectfully disagree.

No way JMS would repeat himself by getting rid of the lead character in two consecutive series after one season. But he would screw with the fans' collective head by making us wonder for an entire summer if that's what was happening. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Although she was in the opening credits, Lochley wasn't exactly a regular character and would only have appeared in five or six S1 episodes. I think there were several reasons for having her. 1) JMS wanted a recurring character connected to the original series, but not one of the original regulars. He suggested that Jerry Doyle not accept a contract role in the show for "x" number of episodes on the grounds that he could get more money as a "special guest star" for doing the same amount of work. (As it turns out they couldn't afford him for the only episode planned to include Garibaldi in a speaking role. He was cut from the script, which didn't end up being filmed anyway.) The main characters from B5 were too restricted by the jobs they took at the end of S5 to be included in Crusade very often. I also think that both Lochley and Tracy Scoggins got short shrift in S5, and that Lochley's character was a relative blank slate. That gave JMS a lot more lattitude in how he developed her, and making her a semi-regular was a way to "make up" for not giving Scoggins more to do as an actor in S5.

There have also been rumors that TNT pushed for Lochley's inclusion in Crusade, either because they wanted one of "their" characters, someone introduced during S5, to be in the new series, or because Scoggins had friends at TNT who pushed for the actress.

I think Lochley would have grown in importance in subsequent seasons, but that it would be precisely her position as commander of Babylon 5 that would make her useful to the story. Once Exaclibur went renegade, they'd need a mole in EarthForce to keep them one step ahead of their pursuers. They'd also need someone to act as their contact with the Interstellar Alliance. You can't do much better than John Sheridan's ex-wife for that role. Lochley would be ideally placed to help Gideon, and she'd be forced to confront her own version of Sheridan's rebellion. During Clarke's dictatorship Lochley never had to violate her EarthForce oath because she was never given a blantantly illegal order or forced to fire on unarmed civilians. She didn't know, as the B5 command staff did, that Santiago was assassinated and the Clarke was behind it. But she does know about Earth's dubious flirtation with Shadow technology, and she trusts Gideon. So when Earth declares him an outlaw, she'd have to commit to one side or the other.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Kribu]

I have to agree with Joe. I very much doubt Gideon would have been killed. If anything, just seriously hurt (although that would have been slightly similar to the Garibaldi situation in Chrysalis).

As for Lochley - what Joe said, she'd have been far more important as the commander of B5. I'd rather think Matheson might have stepped in if something serious enough happened to Gideon, being the first officer and all that - and I'm not sure whether the Excalibur was in a position by the end of the season to have a new captain from "outside".

But I haven't read those scripts, just heard/read of what people have said about them, and read some quotes from them. So I guess my speculation is even more of a speculation than the speculation of people who have actually read the scripts. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[KoshN]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Ivanovafan: </font color>

<font color="yellow"> Beginning of Spoilers Space! Highlight lines below to read. </font color>

<font color="#1E3957">

If you have read End of the Line you know that Gideon would have been shot. I think Gideon would have stayed dead and Lochley would have taken over as captain. Otherwise, why have two captains on the show?

</font color>

<font color="yellow"> End of Spoiler Space. </font color>


[/quote]

I also disagree. Why have two captains on the show? One is Captain of the Excalibur and the other is Captain of B5. Gideon would survive the shot, if indeed he got shot. The impact could be Galen forcing him out of the way of the shot. He could also have been wearing body armor (a vest) and there would still be impact, though no major damage if he'd been shot. (We know he wasn't shot in the head, because that would have been in the scene.)

 

[KoshN]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino: </font color>
No way JMS would repeat himself by getting rid of the lead character in two consecutive series after one season. But he would screw with the fans' collective head by making us wonder for an entire summer if that's what was happening. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/quote]
Instead, he's gotten to screw with us for almost four years, and is probably enjoying this in a way. /forums/images/graemlins/devil.gif

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino: </font color>
He suggested that Jerry Doyle not accept a contract role in the show for "x" number of episodes on the grounds that he could get more money as a "special guest star" for doing the same amount of work. (As it turns out they couldn't afford him for the only episode planned to include Garibaldi in a speaking role. He was cut from the script, which didn't end up being filmed anyway.)

[/quote]
Got an episode title for that one?


</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino: </font color>
But she does know about Earth's dubious flirtation with Shadow technology, ...

[/quote]
She does? When were we ever shown that she's aware of this?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Don't have an episode title on the Garibaldi thing, but I remember a report about it when the show was in production, one that dealt with the attempts to get both Pat Tallman and Jerry Doyle to do guest shots, and why they didn't work. Evidently someone actually saw a detailed set design and construction plans for Michael Garibaldi's office on Mars. An anonymous Babylonian staffer at the time attributed the failure to get Pat to scheduling problems and Doyle's non-appearance to unspecified "economic issues". I'm guessing that it was Doyle's salary the was the problem, but it is possible that the set would have been too expensive to build at that point in the production year. In any case the staffer indicated that two scripts had been rewritten to eliminate the characters, but didn't give the title of either.

Lochley finds out about the Shadowtech experiments in the short story "Hidden Agendas". Since this was written by JMS I'm assuming it is canon until and unless it is contradicted by something we see on-screen. If I'm right, then Lochley learned about it early in S5, and may well have pumped Sheridan for more information later, or even done some digging on her own.

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshN]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino : </font color>
Lochley finds out about the Shadowtech experiments in the short story "Hidden Agendas". Since this was written by JMS I'm assuming it is canon until and unless it is contradicted by something we see on-screen.

[/quote]

Ah, I was only thinking of B5 & Crusade episodes, and the movies. Haven't read "Hidden Agendas" in a long time. Don't remember Lochley's part in it.

No need to elaborate, I can go read it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
No need to elaborate, I can go read it. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/quote]

For those who can't:

Lochley is present when Ivanova briefs Sheridan and others from the "inner circle" about her suspicions regarding her new command, the Titans. Lochley learns about the Shadow-hybrid destroyers used during the civil war, and that Earth is obviously still pursuing this technology in the new Warlock-class ships.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Loadhan]

Spoilers for the end of the unaired script "Value Judgements"
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It's been awhile since I read this and don't have the script here ... but the episode was to be about Bester using Gideon and his crew to escape those that are hunting him. At the very end, it turns out those who are after him are working for Garabaldi. I think in the script he never spoke and was never seen other than maybe a hand ending a com-channel transmission in his office (really close up so they wouldn't need to build a set). They probably planned to actually have him seen and maybe even speak when they thought they could get Jerry Doyle. I think we only know (other than guessing) that it's him is one of the hunters says something like "Sorry, we missed him, Mr. Garabaldi."

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Garibaldi was "Top Dog" in the unmade Bester episode. I half remember that "Ruling from the Tomb" was meant to contain Garibaldi. Having the commanding officer of Babylon 5 checking security on Mars does not make much sense but Sheridan asking his ex-Head of Security to put his head round the door does.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I think Andrew has the right idea on this one. As I recall the script in question got a total re-write in order to eliminate Garibaldi. "Value Judgments" seems like nothing more than an artful way of "writing around" the actor, including the character in a very brief moment for effect, a moment too brief to make it worthwhile for either the producers or the actor. (Very similar to the way Lennier was handled in the early drafts of "Patterns of the Soul." He would have only been seen from behind, briefly, as he held off Psi Corps security with his pike. Only Lyta's calling him by name would have revealed that this was Lennier. Pat Tallman would have had several scenes in the script as planned, so it made sense to actually bring her in for a day's shooting. Lennier had no full scenes and no dialogue, so hiring Bill Mumy wouldn't have. When they couldn't Pat, and therefore couldn't use Lyta as the character in Matheson's flashback, both characters were dropped entirely and the rogue Teep's part rewritten as a one-shot role.)

It also makes more sense that they would have built an elaborate set for Garibaldi's Martian headquarters in "Ruling" than for the brief phone conversation in "Value Judgments", since odds are Gideon would actually have met with Garibaldi there. (I believe the plan was to build and then store the set, so that it could be used in subsequent episodes featuring the character, but at that point the money wasn't there either for the set or for Jerry Doyle, so the idea was put on hold.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Galahad]

I agree about Gideon surviving. Crusade is supposed to be in part a profression from the questions of B5. We now have, who do you serve, and who do you trust? Those questions were hardly even out in the open, or properly defined in the plotline at the point we've been cut out.

These questions would have been properly posed and answered by the Excalibur going on the run. If Gideon had died, a fat lot of good those questions would have done him!

 

[MOmega]

I also agree about Gideon surviving, but may be Lochley will command the Excalibur for few episodes (2-3) until Gideon will be fit to take command again. But how knows?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i think that there is only one character who would be expendable enough in the story and who would not have been vital to the entire run of the series, assuming JMS was going for another five year series, and that character was chambers. personally i think chambers would have been the first regular to go after initially finding a cure to the plague, she really would not have had much to do after that point. then i think that galen would have taken over the role of "scientist" as the excalibur went renegade searching for the real cure or a way to counteract the destructive properties of the first so called "cure". i just think that after the first "cure" would have been found that chambers would not have much to do in the story as it moved on to focus on earth/shadowtech, technomages, apocalypse boxes and the renegade excalibur being hunted, i think JMS probably would have developed her character in the first few seasons and then found a particularly tragic way to kill her off, possibly to introduce a new character to the show down the road but you never know and i suppose we never will...

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There is one exact way to answer this question:

1. All of them, for a while, but nobody knows how.
2. All of them, eventually, but nobody knows how.

To know, the story must be told first.

 

[PsiProne]

Very similar to the way Lennier was handled in the early drafts of "Patterns of the Soul." He would have only been seen from behind, briefly, as he held off Psi Corps security with his pike. Only Lyta's calling him by name would have revealed that this was Lennier

Where did you here that Lennier was in this episode? I only heard it was Lyta, but it does sound like both Lennier and Lyta would have had heroic deaths together. I never thought that before.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Where did you here that Lennier was in this episode?

This came up in a usenet discussion a couple of years ago. Someone who had an early draft of the script sent me the relevent pages in an e-mail. (Now long since departed along with everything else on the hard drive of an old computer. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif) Nobody, least of all JMS, said anything to contradict the synopsis given in the thread. I think he may even have used the way Lennier was handled in that to illustrate "how to write cheaply" in another thread. The point being that it would have been a waste of Mumy's time and the studio's money to have him come in for half a day's shooting (but paying him for a full day because of the time he'd have to spend in makeup) for a few seconds of screen time in which he would scarcely have time to utter a line even if they had given him dialogue. Far better to show a generic Minbari from the back and have Lyta provide a name, since they would already have been paying Pat Tallman.

Regards,

Joe

 

[galenskid]

Instead, he's gotten to screw with us for almost four years, and is probably enjoying this in a way

I agree

personally i think chambers would have been the first regular to go after initially finding a cure to the plague, she really would not have had much to do after that point. then i think that galen would have taken over the role of "scientist" as the excalibur went renegade

I don't suppose Galen would be the new "scientist"because before Gideon was shot,Galen's true intensions were revealed,do you suppose they would except Galen back so fast?

 

[galenskid]

One more thing,who else do you suppose would have left Crusade if the show went on? And do you suppose that there might be new guys on it?

 

[Demon]

Someone who had an early draft of the script sent me the relevent pages in an e-mail. (Now long since departed along with everything else on the hard drive of an old computer. )

I posted the relevant sections on another thread a while back. Here they are again:

The cast list says "Lyta Alexander - TBA"

On page 25 when Matheson enters the cell it says:

"She slowly raises her head: it's LYTA ALEXANDER, looking dishevelled, dirty..."

On page 31,after the fighting starts we have:

"There's another blast, this time of sheer force, not explosives, blowing out the door to the cell, and in the smoke and ust we SEE Lyta emerge, eyes glowing brightly, a corona around her. She looks off...and in the melee we can just SEE a Minbari Ranger, but not seeing his face, fighting furiously, hand to hand, making his way to her.

LYTA
(triumphant)
Lennierrrrrrrrrr!

That's all we see as Matheson is carried away by the crowd.

71 EXT. SPACEPORT

As a shuttle rises into the air

72 CLOSER - SHUTTLE WINDOW

We can just see Matheson in the front window, co-piloting. He looks down as he senses:

LYTA
Live free, John! Find your dreams!

73 HIS POV - DOWNSHOT OF PSI CORPS CENTER

As the center is decimated in a flash of white that makes a thermonuclear detonation look like a firecracker."