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What's up with the grudge over Byron ?

M

masterofpuppets5

Beyond the rim
What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

The way I see it, there's a general consent in the forum about Byron. Lets face it - as vieweres we don't really care about him or even his goals (that includes me).

Even so, I have never disliked him. I liked the way he was affecting Lyta (no, not just the sex scene /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) , and where that takes her. I think the main reason that makes the whole Byron story annoying is his self-righteousness and the embarrassing community singing. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
besides those flaws he is a good guy, and yet if I haven't seen the series & I would go through the varies posts in the forum, I would be certain that Byron is a villain! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I would like to know if there is anyone who thinks like I do. If there is any pro-Byron I would definitely want to hear their opinions!
 
Re: SPOILERS inside

Byron wasn't a villain, just a misguided individual.

In essence, his flaws made him unfit to lead his little band of similarly damaged Teeps. His eventual self-destruction took many of them with him.

But the singing, his hair, and all that flowery prose grew annoying. It's no coincidence he got the pompous name Byron.

Others have echoed my sentiment that his best appearance was in "A View from the Gallery". He gave protection and conversation to Mac and Bo and, aside from a little whining about the unfairness of being a telepath, the meeting put his character in a better light. I'd rate it as one of the best sequences of that episode.
 
Re: SPOILERS inside

Hmmm wonder if there was any Lyta envy on behalf of the males? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

I, too, never understood the Byron-bashing. He was a pretty good alternative to Bester and his gang (who would easily toss your butt out into hyperspace to die without thinking twice about the morality of the situation).

I, for one, think the teeps had a point. They are hunted, distrusted, persecuted. But a home planet was not a practical alternative. If you can't tell a teep from a mundane, couldn't they just pull another "we know your secrets" stunt any time they wanted to?

I've always been curious as to how other races deal with their teeps. Minbari rely on a strict moral code. But how do the Centauri control their teeps? The Narns had theirs wiped out (or wiped them out themselves, I'm still confused on that detail because I thought two different explanations were given at two different points. Perhaps the first was just evasion, though).

Anyhow, I think Byron was being a "Jesus-like figure" for a reason. He was invented to be short-lived. He did preach peace, and some of his followers ignored his philosophy.

In short: I liked the teep sub-arc. So /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif to all of you season 5 haters.

I found the singing to be sad, not annoying, actually.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

I have always been of the opnion that the Byron/teep arc from the 5th season suffered (in many people's eyes) from feeling rather unconnected from the rest of the B5 tapestry. The rest of the threads (Shadow War, Earth Civil War, Minbari Civil War, Centauri War, etc.) all overlap and interweave with each other to such an extent that you never really feel like they are separate stories being told one after the other.

The lone exception to this is the teep arc. It starts up after the Earth Civil War ends, introducing a whole new set of characters the we hadn't previously met. Then it fairly continuously runs its course (aside from a couple stand-alones and just a bit of introductory hinting at the coming Centauri problems). Then it ends and we move on to the Centauri arc, which is much more directly connected to the previous major arcs.

I think that this was a casualty of the fact that JMS thought he needed to wrap things up sufficiently by the end of S4. I think that Byron and his teeps would have been more gradually integrated into station life etc. during S4, had S5 been more likely the whole time. For one thing, the period when B5 was completely cut off from EarthGov is when it would logically make sense for Byron to ask for asylum there and for Sheridan to grant it. After the Alliance has been agreed to (at least in principal), with B5 agreeing to abide by each member's laws with respect to their own citizens, it makes absolutely no sense for Byron to even ask (let alone for Sheridan to think that he could possibly grant it and not be forced into a corner over it by Psi Corps).

Had it been more interwoven with all of the other threads I think that more of the fans would have liked that arc (even if Byrin still wasn't their favorite character). I also think that Ivanova liking Byron, and the way their interactions would likely have played, would rendered Byron more likable to more audiance members.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
In short: I liked the teep sub-arc. So /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif to all of you season 5 haters.

[/quote]
There's a world of difference between hating season 5 and not liking Byron. I loved season 5, I didn't mind the teeps as such - I understood their goals and agreed with a lot of their grievances - and I couldn't stand the sight of Byron.

So it's not as if considering Byron the most annoying character on the show (and, mostly because of that, considering the teep sub-arc a bit too drawn out) equals hating the whole season. Far from it. Heck, I couldn't stand Delenn or Sheridan but that doesn't mean I hated the whole show, does it? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

But Byron gave me the creeps the first time he appeared on the screen, and everything he did - all the pompousness he acted with - certainly didn't make me feel any better about him. And I wasn't even prejudiced - I had no idea then that he wasn't a universally liked character.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

If the teep arc stated in Season 4 some of them would have helped fight the Shadows. What Byron's group may not have known about is the use of the sleeping teeps to attack the Earthforce ships.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I also think that Ivanova liking Byron, and the way their interactions would likely have played, would rendered Byron more likable to more audiance members.


[/quote]

Was Ivanova meant to just like him or more than that? in any case it's hard to imagine her mourning on the loss of another loved friend without becoming totally devastated!
Are you sure that was planned for Ivanova?? JMS can get really ugly with his characters if that's true!
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If the teep arc stated in Season 4 some of them would have helped fight the Shadows.

[/quote]

??? The Shadow War ended 6 episodes into S4. Almost three quarters of the season took place after the Shadows departed. In fact the original S4 plan (based on the idea that there would definitely be an S5) was to introduce Byron and his merry band three or four episodes before the season ended with "Intersections in Realtime".

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

From what I have read (and no, I don't have the references at hand; see if Joe D. has them at hand /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif), a fair amount of Lyta's direct interaction with would have been Susan's. Lyta would have been around but hung a bit more to the background. Lyta would still have ended up as the new leader of the underground. Apparently, giving Susan a connection to Byron and the teep arc was to be the major payoff to her having been made a latent telepath way back in S1.

And starting the telepath arc in S4 doesn't necessarily mean that Byron helps in the Shadow War. If they wanted to maintain his ultra-pacifist stance, he could stay away until the end of the Shadow War. There is still plenty time between that and the end of the Earth Civil War to begin to introduce them into the fabric of the station's society.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

The information about Byron's love affair with Susan comes from Pat (Lyta) Tallman.

Byron himself would not have been involved with the war; he is too much of a pacifist. Where he gets his recruits from is a different matter.

If Byron had deep scanned Ivanova he would not have found out that the Vorlons had created the teeps, Susan did not know. That leaves the two wars as the secret. The recruitment of teeps for the Shadow War will have been know about on most alien worlds, so I doubt that was the destabilising secret. This just leaves how the Earthforce ships were disabled. Byron could easily read that as, if Sheridan betrayed one set of teeps that way, how will he betray me and mine?
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

Yes, Susan's role would have been (to a degree) a combination of what we saw with both Lochley and Lyta.

As commander of Babylon 5 after the end of the civil war, Capt. Ivanova would have been in a similarly awkward position in dealing with her friend and mentor: She would not have the kind of authority over the station that Sinclair and Sheridan had. Also it is likely that the status of Byron's group would have been reconsidered as part of the agreement that ended the war, set up the new temporary administration of Babylon 5, and established the IA (and Earth's membership in it.) Susan would probably have clashed with Sheridan over the issue - although in this version Sheridan might have been the one inclined to return them to Earth for political reasons, and Susan fighting to keep them. Conversely Susan might have decided that as the station commander her military duty required that she scrupulously execute legitimate Earth law, even if she disagreed with it. That would have put her in conflict with herself, as well as Sheridan. (And, since this is dramatically more interesting, I think this is how JMS would have played it.)

Susan would also have become (briefly) romantically involved with Byron, whom she would have seen as a replacement for Marcus. After she discovered her mistake she would have broken off the relationship (and come to realize that Marcus was probably her last real chance for love) but retained her sympathy for the telepaths. Once they turned to violence and blackmail, however, she would have done exactly what Lochley did - call in Bester. (Obviously this would have been a more powerful scene if it had been Ivanova making that call and meeting with Lochley. And it would probably have been Garibaldi pulling the station commander's hands off Bester's throat, rather than the other way around. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

If you watch Claudia Christian's performance in "Sleeping in Light" assuming that the above events had happened (which is almost certainly what they assumed when it was filmed) then her portrait of a bitter, disappointed and unhappy general makes a great deal of sense.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If Byron had deep scanned Ivanova he would not have found out that the Vorlons had created the teeps, Susan did not know.

[/quote]

1) Lyta could still have submitted to a deep scan by Byron simply as a test of loyalty, not during a sexual encounter, so he still would have found out. Or she simply could have told him.

2) I thought Lyta did tell the command staff that the Vorlons had created Human telepaths. So Ivanova would have known, even though she never travelled to the Vorlon homeworld herself.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

Regarding a comment further up the board -- how the Centauri control their telepaths. I have absolutely no evidence for this, but I envision Centauri control as being sort of like Psi Corps -- but not nearly as aggressive and viscious, and also by now rather decrepit and corrupt. In other words, not nearly as effective. Personally, I like the Minbari way best.

I missed the infamous singing session so the most annoying things about Byron to me were his somewhat flowery language and his basic arrogance. I can't really criticize the first one because in my more romantic moments I write the same way myself. But the second one...! My reaction after Byron made his demand before the council was basically this:

"You flipping idiot! You should have gone to Delenn -- she would have helped you! Instead you threaten every powerful person on the station, and we know from the last four years that they HATE being shoved around!"

Just think about it, Delenn would have tried to help. She probably could have pulled something off. Instead Byron takes a highly confrontational approach (perhaps it was the Psi Cop in him surfacing?) and annoyed everyone.

Aside from those points, the character was fine by me. And I think the points about overlap and Ivanova's involvement were extremely well-founded.

About the bitter general Ivanova -- I've kind of thought of that in my own mind that Earth is starting to drift away from the Alliance already and that Ivanova, former second in command to the group that established the Alliance, was sidelined for it.

In any case I think she'll be vastly more happy as Ranger One.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

Speaking of which -- could someone please confirm my long-standing suspicion that Sheridan was made Entil'zha like the other Ones? I know he was Ranger One, but I don't think SiL ever describes him as Entil'zha.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

All the same, I think it would be more influential in provoking a reaction, if you saw the images that were in Lyta's head, rather than just share the basic knowledge of what the Vorlons had done.

I've said it before though, I think thatr little dalliance with Lyta really did burn Byron like Lyta implied it would, I think the tempo definitely upped after that moment. He was more intense, less open (if he ever was) to negotiation, and it was then that he pulled the "flipping idiot" stunts.

Sex can be a very dangerous game if played incorrectly, no more so than when it's with someone who psychologically and emotionally can turn your brain inside out while in the act. Lyta would definitely fit that category!
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

As far as I recall from the pieces of story which have reached me, the Alliance had confusions with electing their president... meaning that they couldn't figure out who to elect instead of Sheridan.

Sheridan on the other hand, originating from Earth, seemed to hope for a more competitive system with presidents changing more quickly. Also, on some planets he would naturally be criticized for failing to achieve that.

Eventually, Sheridan must have got frustrated with being constantly re-elected and resigned. Predictably, the Alliance then insisted on Delenn, who could have perceived holding both jobs a bit too difficult (or a conflict of interest).

Either way, Sheridan did become Entil'zha. The official robe we see him wearing at one point in "Sleeping in Light" resembles the one worn originally by Valen, later Sinclair and Delenn.
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The information about Byron's love affair with Susan comes from Pat (Lyta) Tallman.

[/quote]

Also from JMS. He's discussed this on Usenet. He made the point that he had explained Susan's season five arc to Claudia, who was then claiming that she had left the show because Ivanova had been under-used in S4 and that things weren't going to get any better in S5.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: What\'s up with the grudge over Byron ?

Thanks, that's what I wanted to know.

I can just see the Alliance now... "Are there any OTHER nominations? Any at all?"
 
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