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War Without End

On the SciFi schedule, we're right in the middle of seeing War Without End.

It doesn't get much better than this, Sinclair talking like a Vorlon, Sheridan unglued in time, Zathras, etc.



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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi
 
Its a great double episode and it brings Babylon squared together as we see it from another perspective....

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957
 
The best ep and the central nervous system of the whole story line!

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"...abso-FRAGGIN-lutely, damn it! I have been studying your use of lauguage since our last discussion. Do you approve?"
 
Nice to see Sinclair again, and it's always nice to see Zathras.
The "Luck" scene with Marcus was one of the best of the show too.

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"I've stood here before in the pouring rain
With the world turning circles 'round my brain
I guess I'm always hoping that you'll end this reign
But it's my destiny to be the king of pain." -Sting "King of Pain"
 
The cool thing about these eps is that I finally get them, after having seen them completely out of order and in various pieces. This was the first time I watched them and finally understood everything, like who was in the blue suit at all times, how the various timelines interconnect, etc. I rock.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Yes, I miss Zathras sometimes, he was my favorite character, and War Without End is one of my favorites to watch.

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Have a nice day!!!
 
I must say this is one of my favorites. All in all, it was just great. I have never seen it all the way through before, but I'm glad that I have.
smile.gif


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Oh, and Mundanes Suck!

" Even though he was smart, the reason he participated in this heinous act was the fact that he smoked to much weed. It affected him to the point where he participated in stupid stunts."
-Thrawn2222 What he will say at my funeral. :D
 
I HIGHLY recommend picking up a copy of "To Dream in the City of Sorrows"... I know it's hard to find but it's well worth it. It goes into greater detail what happened to Sinclair after his "reassignment" and tells how Marcus came to be a Ranger. I got mine through http://www.amazon.co.uk and was like $5.50 and only took a week or so to get it.

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We are Gray. We stand between the
darkness and the light. I am Gray. I
stand between the candle and the star.
Is'hilzha venii... in Valen's name
Faith manages...

[This message has been edited by Maagic (edited December 11, 2001).]
 
Definitely one of my favourites, and one I've seen several times. Tonight, I was as moved by Sinclair's transformation as I was the first time I saw it. And Marcus' realization about Sinclair/Valen, what a face!

All around an incredible, convoluted episode, that I hope one day to comprehend fully.

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Hello, I am a signature virus. Add me to the bottom of your sig and help me take over the world!
 
Ive seen it a few times but I still dont get who was in the suit when at some points.
Was it sheriden until the scene where delenn sees him come back(after the reactor disappearance) and switches spots?
I remember the basic storyline, but its been a long time since I last saw it and would like a guide to who is when?
Zathrus is my favourite character.
All Quotes Paraphrased:
Z:"Not supossed to mentione one or the one. Draal give me a list of things not supossed to say, but I dont remember."
Sinclair:"When you remember, tell us."
Z:"OK"

Z:"Time is infinite, you can not run out of time. You are finite, I am finite, this..is wrong tool"

Z:"Zathrus does not understand, but Zathrus do. Zathrus good at doing."

the 'symmetry' quote(not off the top of my head)

but my favourite from them is by delenn
D:"It has already been done. We just need to make sure that we do it then."

csr

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Was it sheriden until the scene where delenn sees him come back(after the reactor disappearance) and switches spots?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. I guess she switched spots as an act of sacrifice for John.

I had always assumed that it was Sinclair in the blue suit in Babylon Squared, but it was actually Delenn.

Sinclair never did any time jumps, he just aged instantly because he passed through the time field thingy.

Sheridan jumped around through time after being hit by some energy blast that broke his stabilizer. He stopped jumping when Delenn gave him her stabilizer and put on the blue suit herself.

Delenn probably time jumped after putting on the suit. Before that, however, she had a "flash," where she saw herself in the bedroom w/ Sheridan. Where she actually jumped, we do not know, but she appeared in the scene that was seen in Babylon Squared, made Sinclair fly backwards, and rescued Zathras.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
Trying to understand everything that's going on in these two episodes may be injurious to one's mental health.

This would be a great series of questions to ask JMS, if one knows the moderated groups he frequents.

Who is in the blue suit when, and how? What sends Sinclair flying across the room?

Why do we see at least two different possible futures (the invasion and destruction of B5, the end of the Londo / G'Kar saga -- though I suppose these two scenes aren't mutually exclusive) but the past seems to remain constant?

If the future has to happen a certain way to influence the past, but the future is fluid, isn't the past?



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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Honey:
And Marcus' realization about Sinclair/Valen, what a face!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's my favorite part after seeing it several times now. The first time around MY realization about Valen totally blew me away.


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"Triple cypher...wine...women...song." - Ambassador Londo Mollari, Born to the Purple
 
The only thing I still don't get is where the device came from that transformed Sinclair (and Delenn for that matter). I also don't understand why Delenn's transformation was partial and Sinclair's was a full one...

crazy.gif


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by B5Elf:
The only thing I still don't get is where the device came from that transformed Sinclair (and Delenn for that matter). I also don't understand why Delenn's transformation was partial and Sinclair's was a full one...

crazy.gif


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I've read (on Lurker's I think) that the chrysalis device came from Epsilon 3. It was brought aboard Babylon 4 with the equipment that Zathras brought. I was looking for this last night but I never caught it. Anyway, Sinclair takes it back with him. He has to be completely Minbari in order for the Minbari of that time to accept Babylon 4 and him. They would not have accepted a hybrid of some other race that they had never seen, nor would they have trusted him. The chrysalis device then apparently is left on Minbar somewhere and Delenn then gets it in the current time. She gave it to Draal sometime after she was done with it.

Apparently the transformation process can be adjusted and she chose to retain some Minbari characteristics so to be obviously both in order to be "a bridge between races".


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"Triple cypher...wine...women...song." - Ambassador Londo Mollari, Born to the Purple
 
Well, I'm not sure the change from Sinclair to Valen was complete on more than a surface level. Were that so, would not Sinclair's body chemistry have changed?

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
If that happened, how would the Minbari have recongnized some human souls (i.e. Sinclair) as Minbari?
</font></td></tr></table>

Further,

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
We know that, at least with the triluminary -- the little triangle that starts the chrysalis and does the transforming -- that Minbari can identify a member of their race who has Valen as a forefather at least some 900 years removed from Valen. So Valen's chemistry must have somehow stayed distict enough to pinpoint for a whole lot of generations.
</font></td></tr></table>

Plus,


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
Remembering that there are three triluminaries in Minbari possession, there could be three transformations. Various non-TV elements say the third person to change was Catherin Sakai. One can then imagine that the "children of Valen" came from this union.

If that's so, then we don't really know if the transformation of Sinclair and Sakai was complete enough for them to even reproduce with "real" Minbari -- though it certainly seems their children were.
</font></td></tr></table>

This does get complicated...


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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi
 
The triluminaries are probably "programmable." That is, one could set it to be a full transformation, or a partial.

Where did the triluminaries come from? Epsilon 3. They may have been built there, left there, or are somehow part of the Great Machine. At least one went back in time with Sinclair. Presumably, Delenn used that one to transform. Another one is set atop the staff held by Grey Council.

The whole story of the triluminaries is not known, and it's not that important. What some people have a problem dealing with is the possibility that a triluminary was sent back through time, which was then used later, then set back, etc. That is, there is not "starting point" for it, much like Sinclair (he went back because he already went back). This is all based on the idea that time is cyclical, rather than linear, as most Western folks understand it.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
what doesn't feel right about this episode is the part where sinclair tries to war garibaldi about getting shot in the back. It doesn't sound right... If he had contacted him something bad could have happend and when he says it happend just as i remember .... i don't know i'm just ok with those 2 scenes.

any explanations to clear it up

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Remember that throughout the episodes, Sinclair went out of his way to avoid contact with Garibaldi. He didn't want to alter the course of events. He only left Garibaldi the video message so that Garibaldi's feelings wouldn't be hurt when he found out that Sinclair had been aboard without seeing him.

When he tried to contact Garibaldi, it was just an emotional outburst. He was upset that he knew that "season 1" Garibaldi would get shot in the back and didn't do anything about it, even though he knew he couldn't do anything about it.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
 
1) This is definitely the place where the seams show in the Sinclair/Sheridan transition. Sinclair tries to warn Garibaldi, but later tells Delenn, "I tried to warn them, but everything happened just as I remembered it." His warning would have had no effect on the events in this episode even if Garibaldi had heard it, and there is no "them" involved, so the line really doesn't make any sense. Also the line about "present time atmosphere" is cut.

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Sinclair's transformation was almost complete. It would have to be for Valen to have Minbari children, as we know he did. However, some of his Human DNA remained unchanged and was passed on to his offspring. Delenn still has some, many generations later. Thus the Triluminary identified Sinclair's DNA when he was scanned, and glowed for other Humans not because they had Minbari souls, but because they shared certain DNA sequences with Sinclair.</font></td></tr></table>



Why does everybody assume a triluminary can only be used once, and therefore each one is "meant" to transform someone. In fact, one of the three seems to be imbedded in the staff that Dukhat carries, and two are in storage.

Zathras brings all three triluminaries, which were created on Epsilon 3, along with the Chrysalis machine, aboard the White Star. When he and Sinclair go back in time, all four devices are with them, and eventually are returned to Minbar 1,000 years ago. At some point Delenn acquires the Chrysalis device from Minbar and spends most of S1 assembling it. Late in S1 she acquires a triluminary from one of the Grey Council members to activate it.

As far as I know, Delenn still has the triluminary and the Chrysalis device, though at some point she probably returns both to the Grey Council, which would therefore have all three triluminaries again.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 

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