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"Visitors" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

\"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

A question that came up on the Warner Bros. official site got me thinking about this episode, which I initially passed off as JMS having a bit of fun with Chris Carter and The X-Files by showing the "Alien Conspiracy" from the other side, with us as the "Aliens".

It now strikes me that this was JMS foreshadowing at its quirkiest, since the end of S1 and most of S2 would have thrust Gideon and Co. into a situation very much like that of Mulder and Scully - battling a secret government conspiracy involving the exploitation of alien technology. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I'm curious to hear what everybody else thinks of this idea.


Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

While watching "Vistors" today as I recorded, and thinking about other episodes, it occured to me JMS may have been thumbing his nose at someone, possibly TNT, because I can see a lot of sly sarcasm in almost every episode except the first two. I'm probably wrong but it seems to me he was saying, "You want to screw with my program? I'll show you what I think of your ideas."
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

The X-Files ripoffs were a bit too blatant to make the story plausible IMHO. Although JMS managed to say in one hour what Chris Carter dragged out over seven years, it gave the entire episode the smell of cheese. The red-haired chick, the whistling background music and the smoking guy were much less subtle than what I would expect from the talent of JMS.
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

I thought it was funny /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I doubt jms was doing any foreshadowing there, but then again you never know.

Because yes, Gideon and Co. will be facing earth conspiracies with the use of Shadow tech etc.

But I think jms was just having fun. Man i loved Crusade /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
JMS may have been thumbing his nose at someone, possibly TNT, because I can see a lot of sly sarcasm in almost every episode except the first two. I'm probably wrong but it seems to me he was saying, "You want to screw with my program? I'll show you what I think of your ideas."


Except that "Visitors" was shot before the infamous "TNT memo" and before their notes became intrusive. If you want to see JMS getting sarcastic, wait for "Appearances and other Deceits", which is all about pointlessly screwing around with unimportant things while distracting everybody from the work at hand. Naturally it all went over the heads of the TNT execs in Atlanta.


Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

Tired old question I still don't really understand why was Crusade cancelled in the first place ? I know I have been around here for a while but I still don't know ??????? I have grown to love to love it .
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Question I still don't really understand why was Crusade cancelled in the first place ?


Timeline in a nutshell.

Crusade begins filming, and five episodes are completed (the last five shown, with grey uniforms, starting with "Racing the Night"). JMS declared that they were pretty damn good, and the fans were excited about the forthcoming saga.

TNT then decides that there are aspects of the show they don't like (just about everything really), stump up some extra cash for new sets and black uniforms (which were better let's be honest) and start making demands on JMS as to what should be in the show. Two striking examples are:

1. They decided that SF viewers were too dense to get into Crusade with RtN as the first episode, so insisted on a new opener ("War Zone") which was to include much more in the way of explanation and how everyone got involved in the crew. This episode is widely considered to be utter tripe for those exact reasons.

2. In the episode where Matheson is visited and tested by the telepath's regulatory body, it was suggested that Gideon persuade Dureena to get Mr Jones to rape her in order to produce the appropriate blackmail at the end of the episode. Thankfully JMS refused that one.

At some point in that whole process JMS decided enough was enough and he would not take anymore. It is said that he went into one meeting with TNT Execs and effectively said "whatever you want the answer is 'No'".

TNT then decided that if they couldn't have Crusade the way they wanted it, then they didn't want it at all and cancelled it.

(The most common description for what they wanted was "Wrestling in Space").

In total, a further 8 TNTised episodes were produced, making 13 in total. None of these had been seen by the fans, or given the opportunity to prove its appeal via the ratings, before cancellation.

TNT then promoted the first run as a "Limited Series".

On top of all that, when JMS took the opportunity to try and involve another TV station (SFC) in continuing Crusade, TNT allegedly wanted a fee that no station in its right mind would consider paying.

And so ... it ended.

We have 13 (sometimes flawed) episodes of a show that could have been so much more if it had just been left alone and given a chance.

Personally, I don't see any circumstances in which the show will be revived.


Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by ElScorcho: </font color>
The red-haired chick, the whistling background music and the smoking guy were much less subtle than what I would expect from the talent of JMS.


However, the quotes from this episode were great:

"The truth has never been in anyone's best interests. The truth is...out of fashion." - Kendarr
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

Here is jms's short story on the reasons - well i mean, it actually isn't related, but you know /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

1999 - 'Why Crusade was Cancelled' - a fair tale

Q: "I'd like to know how many episodes are sold and what plans you have..."
JMS: "For?"
Q: "Crusade."
JMS: "Thank you. It's a very long story. There's stuff I can say, and there's stuff that I can't say. So, I'll tell you what I can say and lie about what I can't say. "We shot 13 episodes. And TNT will be airing those on June 9 at 10:00, starting then and going straight through, more or less. And we had... they had said they weren't going to do more beyond that, beyond the 13. We tried at that point to take it to the SciFi Channel, but it was so late in the game.... It takes a lot of money to be able to support an entire season of a show. The SciFi Channel had already allocated their funds for the year, so they couldn't pick it up. If the show does well, the first 13, then it will be considered for a season, beginning with the second season, on the SciFi Channel. If the show does well, it will go on. "As for more what happened...
Let me tell you a fairy tale. And every fairy tale begins with Once Upon A Time...

"...There was a writer of songs in a kingdom. And he wasn't the best writer of songs on the entire planet. There were others who were as good or better. And he had written 110 really good songs... and four or five long odes.
And they said, 'Do some more songs for us.'
And he said, 'Sure.'
And he began writing more songs. And those were for this little kingdom which was great. As were the ministers, who had always before worked with him.
"Then the King heard about the new songs that were being commissioned. Not the Emperor. Not the Emperor Theodore and his wife Lady Jane. I ain't talking about them. I'm talking about the lower king of a particular land, all right. I don't want the Emperor getting pissed at me. And he (the King) said, 'Well, I should be involved creatively.'
"And thus there came... runners would come with scrolls, which the singer/songwriter would look at and burn.
"Now this is just a fairy tale. Okay? This is nothing but a fairy tale. This is not about Crusade. Okay? I'm just telling you a story here.
"And the King became wroth. He waxed Wroth, and Wroth wasn't very happy about it. Old joke, I'm sorry.
"So they called for a grand meeting at which, along one long table were ministers, and emissaries, and ambassadors, and functionaries and assistants, and programming-uh,...a whole lot of guys. Now on the other side of the table was the writer of songs. And they had plenty of these huge scrolls in front of them. And they began to open the first one.
"And the writer of songs said, 'no.'
"And they brought someone in with a book to explain to them what the word 'no meant, because they had never heard it before. And they said, 'no to what?'
"I said... The writer of songs said, in this imaginary story, 'no to all of it. No to all of it in all its parts and pieces, from page 1 to page 20. No to all of it.' The writer of songs felt that what they wanted was, in modern terms, for a moment, sort of Baywatch meets wrestling in space. Which was not applicable, exactly, to our fairy tale scenario. (aside: If I every work again, it'll be a miracle)
"It became clear that if the King's emissaries were not properly responded to, that they may say, 'you can only write 13 songs.' And the writer of songs said, 'better 13 songs that I can believe in than 22 that I do not.
"So there were 13 songs, and the writer of songs has moved to a different kingdom knowing that the 13 songs were songs that he wanted to hear. And in the 13th song there was a sub-thread in the song about people who come in with suggestions, which is rather similar to the King's situation. Astonishingly, the King saw the 13th song and didn't realize what it was.
"And the writer of songs moved to another kingdom and lived happily ever after.
"And this has nothing to do with Crusade or your question, but I thought I'd tell you that story because it amuses me."
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

I'm not sure about the foreshadowing, but I think it wasn't just X-Files he was taking a swipe at /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

At the end, when Gideon instructs Matheson to load up a whole load of probes with the contents of the Galactic Encyclopedia, and launch them at the planet, Matheson asks if some people might consider this as interfering with the planet's development.

Gideon's response is a classic. "Screw 'em"

So much for the Prime Directive /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

That having been said about why it was cancelled why didn;t JMS be a little more reasonable with TNT about Crusade and make a few concessions like more sex and violence it could still be HIS story to tell.Surely with a few of these concessions maybe such a great show that already had so much potential to offer would have succeded and we would be hopping .
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

Tell me what would have been great about it.

I'm sorry, but there has to be some point where your artistic integrity says NO! in a very loud voice.
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

I just think it could have been even better than Babylon 5 was and that's saying a lot at least for me .The show only had 13 eps so I guess we may never know will we?Save the SFC if they should change their minds about their policy towards "alien hard ware" and decide to suddenly fork over money.Neither of which is likely at least not right now.
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

Yes, SM, I agree. But only if JMS was given the freedom to do what he wanted with the series.

If TNT had it's way "Crusade" would have become a "crusade for T and A". /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Oh, and some violence along the way.
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

Yeah, I agree. And if the creator at any point feels that he has to draw the line here and not any further, that he cannot continue the story he wanted to tell with the changes demanded, then it's better to just quit.

Even though I miss Crusade a lot, and also think it had the potential to be a very good series, I respect JMS' decision, as he obviously felt that the story told the way TNT would have wanted it to be told, was not worth the effort.
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

The problem with JMS compromising a little bit on the sex and violence is "where does it then stop?".

Having started to do what they wanted, it becomes harder and harder for JMS to draw a line in the sand.

If he turns round and says "No" to something further down the line they would, in all probability, feel that he was just being unreasonable because after all he has agreed to all this other stuff.

The only way to deal with that, I think, is to take the approach he did. He basically said to TNT ... this I will do ("War Zone"), and these things I will not.

As he has been quoted as saying many times since, they were not prepared to accept that but he would rather have 13 episodes he was happy with (well maybe 12) than 110 that he felt were somehow compromised, or tainted.

I can see that.
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

I completely agree, but you really do have to be concerned when there are people out there who think it is perfectly acceptable to make rape the subject of entertainment.

To educate or inform about it in drama is acceptable, but using it as a petty plot device? Abominable!

Those Execs were being voyeuristic perverts if you ask me.

I suggest we ressurect Mary Whitehouse and get her to beat them all up with her walking stick.

I agree with John Nathan Turner's approach to screen violence. That when you do use it, you should show that it hurts and that it has consequences. Something jms is able to do very well, something that TV execs today are swift to forget.
Re: \"Visitors\" (Spoilers for unfilmed scripts & S2)

I don't know myself, but I suspect that TNT was, in their perspective, trying their best to make Crusade fit their new programming. In short, it would have to be made cheap trash if it were to fit in with their programming. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

I, for one, am very glad JMS said "no way". As much as I hated Crusade being cancelled, how much more painful was watching Earth, Final Conflict slide downhill in terms of quality. THAT hurt more. Much more.

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