Three Little Questions???

StarStuff · Jan 24, 2002

1. Was anyone on a B5 Bulletin Board during the initial B5 run? Were the fans as nitpicking as we are experiencing now after the showing of the Ranger film?

2. And, for those unhappy with the Ranger film, have you tuned into ENTERPRISE lately (ealier I typed Voyager by mistake)? It's like watching paint dry. I, for one, enjoyed the Ranger film. I liked the story and thought the actors/characters did a fine job. I don't demand perfection and I don't care about the color of the sky. I would love to follow the Rangers through their Mission Impossible B5 universe.

3. I have e-mailed appreciation and encouragement to the Sci Fi Channel but am not sure of how or to whom to address a hand-written letter? And isn't it true that snail mail counts more than e-mail? (Thanks Joe D. for the addresses of the sponsors - I need to get more stamps.)

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God be between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk.

[This message has been edited by StarStuff (edited January 24, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by StarStuff (edited January 24, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Were the fans as nitpicking as we are experiencing now after the showing of the Ranger film?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably not, at least in the beginning.

After all, it was an unknown series with no previous achievements. It was new. There must have been some nitpicking, but not as detailed or comparative as today. There were only other shows to compare with, which meant comparing the uncomparable.

Now, there is "Babylon 5" and "Crusade". Comparisons can do both good and harm. Some people have trouble accepting a view from a different angle. Some simply like to criticise, and constructive criticism can do much good.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]

Recoil · Jan 24, 2002

*SIGH*

Too much B5 on the brain lately. When I saw her topic 'three little questions' my initial reaction was to think:

Who are you?
What do you want?
Why are you here?

Damn thats sad isnt it

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

PsionTen · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And, for those unhappy with the Ranger film, have you tuned into Voyager lately? It's like watching paint dry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What kinda logic is that? Because there's other crap on tv I should be satisfied with slightly better crap? Why not just put out a damn good product to begin with? Can you honestly say that b5lr was a damn good movie? I can't.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

[This message has been edited by PsionTen (edited January 24, 2002).]

LondosHair · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1. Was anyone on a B5 Bulletin Board during the initial B5 run? Were the fans as nitpicking as we are experiencing now after the showing of the Ranger film?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I was... and yes, they (we) were.

Especially when Crusade began...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>2. And, for those unhappy with the Ranger film, have you tuned into Voyager lately? It's like watching paint dry. I, for one, enjoyed the Ranger film.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Voyager is over; I assume you mean Enterprise? I wasn't much of a Voyager fan, but I really am enjoying Enterprise. Sure, there isn't a lot of action going on, but there's still the underlying arc of the Suliban and the mysterious individual who they seem to be working for. That hasn't gone away. They're doing the standard route of focusing on the characters for now; the action will come later.

JMS follows this same pattern:
(1) Introduction -- character exposition, story, setting
(2) Rising Action -- the part of the story that steadily increases in interest and suspense due, usually, to the intensification of the conflict
(3) Climax (or "crisis") -- the point of "highest interest" and highest emotional impact on the viewer... also known as the "turning point."
(4) Falling Action -- the action which occurs after the crisis; the concluding moments.
(5) Denouement (Conclusion) -- Denouement literally means "unknotting" and refers to the "final unraveling of a plot," the final outcome or explanation of events.

Enterprise seems to be following this pattern. Each episode is still self-contained, as is Trek's tradition (and B5's as well), but there is still an underlying arc which will probably pick up steam next season.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>3. I have e-mailed appreciation and encouragement to the Sci Fi Channel but am not sure of how or to whom to address a hand-written letter? And isn't it true that snail mail counts more than e-mail?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe, I'm not sure... I haven't really heard one way or the other... although it would make sense. An actual physical letter is the proof that you, as a fan, are willing to sit down and write it, then pay the postage, all for the show you love...

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-Londo's Hair
"Vir, intelligence has nothing to do with politics!"

[This message has been edited by LondosHair (edited January 24, 2002).]

Recoil · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
What kinda logic is that? Because there's other crap on tv I should be satisfied with slightly better crap? Why not just put out a damn good product to begin with? Can you honestly say that b5lr was a damn good movie? I can't.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can.

Thanks. Please drive thru.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

[This message has been edited by Recoil (edited January 24, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

In reply to PsionTen:

Neither can I imagine a way how it could have fulfilled your (obviously quite high) requirements for a "damn good movie". It seems that while setting your expectations, you did not fully consider the situation. You don't get excellence without experience, neither in film-making nor any other field.

The show continued by "Rangers" has been discontinued for 3 years. To my surprise, I heard today that even the original CGI models have been lost. Much has been lost and had to be redone.

The actors are new and need to get into their roles. In spite of no character background, they did it remarkably well. How do you expect them to achieve perfection at once? I see no way. Where is the amazing budget to provide time/space for making/correcting errors? I assure it is not here.

Where is the time and space for cooking up an inticate and detailed story arc? There was none. Babylon 5 was a result of years of preparation, yet "The Gathering" isn't really that bright and shiny...

Many (or even most) viewers believe that it exceeded "The Gathering". I haven't seen it yet, so I will refrain from commenting. I only wish to draw your attention to the fact that for the situation this was a good achievement. If you expect the utmost quality from pilot movies, you will be disappointed more often than I wish to know.

The Shadows would say: evolution through conflict, victory through losses, excellence through experience.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:

Many (or even most) viewers believe that it exceeded "The Gathering". I haven't seen it yet, so I will refrain from commenting. I only wish to draw your attention to the fact that for the situation this was a good achievement. If you expect the utmost quality from pilot movies, you will be disappointed more often than I wish to know.

The Shadows would say: evolution through conflict, victory through losses, excellence through experience.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't see any need for conflict. On the contrary, developments happen much faster and much healthier if outside input is heeded in a peaceful way. It's much better for a show to listen to comments like "Gee, overall a decent pilot, but..." then just watching its audience never climb above the critical mark and the series being tossed before it had a chance. If you looked across the networks of late, it doesn't take much for a show to be pulled. It doesn't even take a flaw in the show. It's completely sufficient that some moronic program director puts it in the same slot as "Who wants to be a Millionaire?" at its heyday and its chances are marginal, however great its quality might be. As such, it's better for a show to listen to viewer input via message boards than viewer input via ratings. The first might hurt your ego, the second can kill your airtime.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

KoshN · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by StarStuff:
1. Was anyone on a B5 Bulletin Board during the initial B5 run? Were the fans as nitpicking as we are experiencing now after the showing of the Ranger film?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't. This is the first time I've experienced this (if you don't count Crusade, which really didn't have a "pilot").

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by StarStuff:
2. And, for those unhappy with the Ranger film, have you tuned into Voyager lately? It's like watching paint dry.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only tuned in to Voyager when I was having trouble sleeping. I used to keep an Economics textbook around for the same purpose.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by StarStuff:
3. I have e-mailed appreciation and encouragement to the Sci Fi Channel but am not sure of how or to whom to address a hand-written letter? And isn't it true that snail mail counts more than e-mail? (Thanks Joe D. for the addresses of the sponsors - I need to get more stamps.)
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've emailed and snail mailed appreciation and encouragement to the Sci Fi Channel. My snail mail went out yesterday. Here's the snail mail address:

Ms. Bonnie Hammer, President
The Sci-Fi Channel
1230 Avenue of the Americas
New York, NY 10020-1513

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As such, it's better for a show to listen to viewer input via message boards than viewer input via ratings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But how can you efficiently listen to input... before writing the story, before filming and before making the special effects?

Constructive criticism needs something to criticize, because otherwise it is asking "what do you want". Different people are going to want different things. I want Delenn to have a pet Shadow, you want to resurrect Marcus Cole, mister Morden wants fries with that.

Somebody has to take the chance, plan the story, make the pilot... and only after that can criticism be truly constructive. Pre-production criticism is not very productive. Only after you have an idea can somebody criticise it. I also believe that JMS did listen to pre-production criticism, but only from those close enough to trust with such secrets. And he decided to take the chance, either because there was no time/budget to tweak things... or for the hell of it, to find out what we think.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
But how can you efficiently listen to input... before writing the story, before filming and before making the special effects?

Constructive criticism needs something to criticize, because otherwise it is asking "what do you want". Different people are going to want different things. One wants a pet Shadow, another to resurrect Marcus Cole. I want fried with that.

Somebody has to take the chance, plan the story, make the pilot... and only after that can criticism be truly constructive. Pre-production criticism is not very productive. Only after you have an idea can somebody criticise it. I also believe that JMS did listen to pre-production criticism, but only from those close enough to trust with such secrets. And he decided to take the chance, either because there was no time/budget to tweak things... or for the hell of it, to find out how we react.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the pilot has been produced and is being criticised now. The point is that those who voice constructive criticism want the product to be BETTER. Of course there are those who trash something, but they will trash anything. But take a look at Star Treck. Who is buying "The Nitpicker's Guide to.." whatever incarnation? People who want to make fun of Star Trek? No. It's people who care for the show. And if anything, those books are a great documentation of how the makers of modern Star Trek screwed up again and again and again because there is plenty of stuff that they should have known better or should have paid attention to, and easily could have. All it would have taken was to read the book to realize how frequently they for example change premises in mid-series, just because what was established previously now is inconvenient, because it wasn't thought through.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>But the pilot has been produced and is being criticised now. The point is that those who voice constructive criticism want the product to be BETTER.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. What did we disagree about?

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

PsionTen · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Neither can I imagine a way how it could have fulfilled your (obviously quite high) requirements for a "damn good movie". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, I've just had enough with the excuses, JMS worshipping, and blind-eye optimism. A movie can and should be judged simply on what it is and not what you might want it to be. Star Trek seems to have no problem putting out decent pilots/movies... "Broken Bow," "Emissary" "Encounter at Farpoint" all were excellent on their own. Of course, somebody will say "apples and oranges" and raise all kinds of senseless points about how Star Trek is different, and has more money... yadda, yadda, yadda. Look folks, the track record for b5 movies has never been good. Instead of giving us nonsensical tripe like "Thirdspace" and "River of Souls" we should have been watching the "Telepath War," something dealing with David Sheridan or the life of Sinclar/Valen during the Shadow War and beyond. Those are obviously better stories than Thirdspace and River of Souls ... why not show them? What's he waiting on... a feature film? Right. If sci-fi can't drum up enough ratings to make Rangers a series then who in the heck is gonna see a b5 movie on the big screen?

B5LR was your average run-of-the-mill movie, no more and no less. Was it better than Thirdspace, River of Souls and ACTA? Yeah, but that's like saying I'd rather be shot by a .22 than a .45 --- it's gonna hurt either way. Personally, I hope that it does -- somehow-- become a series, because there is a lot of potential there, but if sci-fi was making the decision based purely on how the pilot was received ... I dunno. It still seems to me that if the ratings were in the range they were wanting, then they would have released some numbers by now.

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"Dawn's in trouble? Must be Tuesday." -- Buffy Summers, "Once More With Feeling."

KoshN · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Originally posted by StarStuff:
2. And, for those unhappy with the Ranger film, have you tuned into Voyager lately? It's like watching paint dry. I, for one, enjoyed the Ranger film.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LondosHair:
Voyager is over; I assume you mean Enterprise?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assumed StarStuff meant Voyager reruns.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LondosHair:
I wasn't much of a Voyager fan, but I really am enjoying Enterprise.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I enjoyed parts of last night's Enterprise episode (them presenting the Doctor's POV). The Doc's a pretty interesting character.

Regarding TLaDiS, overall I liked the movie, and want it to go to series, if only to increase Crusade's chances. I already wrote to Sci-Fi to tell them this (didn't tell them the last part).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Originally posted by StarStuff:
3. I have e-mailed appreciation and encouragement to the Sci Fi Channel but am not sure of how or to whom to address a hand-written letter? And isn't it true that snail mail counts more than e-mail?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by LondosHair:
Maybe, I'm not sure... I haven't really heard one way or the other... although it would make sense. An actual physical letter is the proof that you, as a fan, are willing to sit down and write it, then pay the postage, all for the show you love...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard a hand-written letter counts the most. Unfortunately, my hand-writing's never been very good, so as a result, I write all my letters on Word and then just sign 'em.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Joseph DeMartino · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>1. Was anyone on a B5 Bulletin Board during the initial B5 run? Were the fans as nitpicking as we are experiencing now after the showing of the Ranger film?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't around at the very beginning, but was on-line during the show's first run and the answer to this question is "yes."

Certain people announced that the sky was falling, the series didn't make any sense, there was no arc and that JMS couldn't write anymore at the start of each and every season. They also did it for every TV movie and before Crusade even aired. ("Oh, great. JMS rips off Starblazers." "It's stupid, we already know they find a cure.")

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Star Trek seems to have no problem putting out decent pilots/movies... "Broken Bow," "Emissary" "Encounter at Farpoint" all were excellent on their own.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really do need to learn the difference between objective fact and personal opinion. I liked Rangers. On the other hand I disliked every single one of the "good" pilots you named above. (And I notice you omitted the Voyager pilot, since I imagine even you cannot call that one "good" with a straight face.)

While better than other post-TOS pilots, Broken Bow didn't impress me (or even interest me) in the least. (And I was rooting for the show since I'm an old Trek fan and I liked Scott Bakula from his Quantum Leap and Murphy Brown days.) I probably had a bigger emotional investment in Broken Bow than I did in Rangers.

Encounter at Farpoint? Talk about watching paint dry. There might have been enough genuine story in there for a one hour episode, but I'm not sure, because I kept nodding off during it.

The Emissary? Another exercise in tedium which had an oddly rushed and half-finished feel to it. (Later explained by the information that Paramount had rushed its writing and production to get it on the air before the B5 pilot.)

And the less said about the Voyager pilot (I have mercifully forgotten the details, including the name), the better.

In my view Trek hasn't had a decent pilot since "Where No Man Has Gone Before." But, as I said, this is a matter of personal opinion and taste, not objective truth. Maybe Rangers isn't "bad", just not to your taste, since you seem to prefer so many things that I wouldn't waste two hours watching again.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>PsionTen wrote:

Look, I've just had enough with the excuses, JMS worshipping, and blind-eye optimism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What can I say? If you think you have had enough, then who can argue? Or perhaps, due to our slightly different way of seeing things, we call the same things with slightly different names?

Excuses --> Limitations of an imperfect world.
JMS worshipping --> Trust based on achievement.
Blind-eye optimism --> Tentative optimism.

The Shadow Nitpicking Team eagerly awaits your comments, ever ready to nitpick all issues... and otherwise relentlessly pursue the betterment of the younger races.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 24, 2002).]

KoshN · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Irmo:
But the pilot has been produced and is being criticised now. The point is that those who voice constructive criticism want the product to be BETTER.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EXACTLY! At the risk of answering a Shadow Question

, that's what I want, improvements to take place between the pilot and the series. If I didn't care about it, and didn't expect top-notch quality from JMS, I wouldn't be saying anything.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Irmo:
Of course there are those who trash something, but they will trash anything.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True. Some will engage in purely destructive criticism, because they want to destroy a particular project (and this might be the same motivation why a program manager will put a show in a timeslot where the competition will almost certainly kill it).

Others will engage in purely destructive criticism, because they'll never be satisfied with anything, or because the show didn't go the way they wanted it to go.

In my criticism of TLaDiS, both here and on rastb5m, I've tried to be constructive, because I want the show to go to series, and I want it to be better than the pilot.

Where JMS has come back with what I think is a viable reason for the way things were done in TLaDiS, I've backed off. Where he's come back with an answer that I think is wrong (and I have solid proof to back up my arguments), I haven't backed off. The point of the whole exercise is to make improvements. While, I don't really expect that JMS will listen to me on the the finer points of storytelling, TV/Movie making, or anything else really, I do HOPE he'll listen to me on science errors I notice, since I do have a B.S.E.E. (Electrical Engineering), and so had to take lots of physics, math, statics & dynamics, thermodynamics, vibrations analysis, electromagnetic fields and waves, optics, etc., etc., in addition to the standard EE circuitry classes.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

LightNZ · Jan 24, 2002

It was a pilot - not a movie

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"Will you follow me into fire? Into storm, into darkness, into death?!

GKarsEye · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A movie can and should be judged simply on what it is and not what you might want it to be. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's some good advice, there, pal. Maybe you should take it.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

Recoil · Jan 24, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PsionTen:
Look, I've just had enough with the excuses, JMS worshipping, and blind-eye optimism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude, what do you expect? Look at where you are posting man! This is a B5 website. No kidding it is full of fans who worship JMS and have blind-eye optimism! Why are you even here? MOST of the people post here do give objective opinions however, if you would care to read that part.

Seriously though, if this all annoys you, dont come here. Simple as that.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

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