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The new Race (possible spoiler)

  • Thread starter **DONOTDELETE**
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**DONOTDELETE**

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Well to put it this way, what do ya all know about the new alien race "The Hand" in the new B5 movie. according to what i know it is an alien race that was banished by the first ones thousands of millions years ago. This leads me to believe in a few certain points. They can most likely wipe the floor with any of the current races still in the galaxy. Also they probely arn't as powerfull as the Vorlons of the Shadows do the fact that they were banished. Also this new plot idea is one that i have been wondering about ever since the first ones left the galaxy "Is there another race which the Vorlons and Shadows have been protection the younger races from" and i guess the awnsure to this is yes. Think about it they come only a few years after the first one's left. They odviously found out the they can now roam in this part of the galaxy. Also this also helps to support my theory that the vorlons and shadows are more powerfull because they've odviously been keeping them out. Anyway if you any thoughts on this or information that i havn't said yet about the new race please tell me.

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I find it likely that besides providing guidance (in which they, to a great extent, miserably failed) the First Ones also provided protection.

Nobody would want to rummage around in a galaxy where countless battlecrabs grow under the surface of harmless-looking worlds, where the First One still waits, where the Sigma 957 walkers run their errands and any attempt to enter Vorlon space is lethal. You would not want to realize dreams of conquest while the possibility of retaliation remains.

First Ones could not leave before the younger races were ready to decide. Once the time came, and proof of this was provided to them in its full annoyingness, the First Ones left...

...but with some reluctance, leaving part of their heritage behind. Oh yes, their job was done. The younger races could decide. To remain would continue the Shadow wars. But could the younger races also defend their decisions? What would happen if somebody would prematurely awaken the Hand?

They must have either:

1. Been sure that the Hand wouldn't return before the younger races would be ready to deal with them.

2. Been sure the the Hand was defeatable, given that their vulnerabilities would be discovered and exploited.

3. Left behind something to ensure that these vulnerabilities would be discovered and exploited.

4. Seemingly left to see if the Hand sticks its head out of the hole. To see if the younger races can handle them.

The Vorlons were sure that their thirdspace jump-gate would never be found. But they included the "how to nuke it in three easy steps educational program" in Vorlon-modified telepaths anyway.

The Shadows also left much behind. They left their homeworld for the Drakh to play with, left an unfinished planetkiller at its construction site, left Shadow technology lying around (or walking around) all over the galaxy.

Shadow ships were not seen again and the Drakh planetkillers were weak and vulnerable compared to originals. The Drakh used a rigid internal framework with a central node while the Shadow cloud was fluid, decentralized and also capable of freezing any ships caught inside.

The technomages or the Drakh wouldn't be able to reproduce the best or worst of Shadow technology. Neither would the Minbari be able to fully reverse-engineer Vorlon technology. But they might learn the essentials, including a few weapons capable of hurting the Hand.

In the end I think that the Hand was awakened too early (or noticed the departure of First Ones too soon). They saw a chance and acted quickly, leaving their butt uncovered. Well, somebody found it and gave it a generous whack.

Had things gone differently, the First Ones would have noticed the return in a maximum of 20 years (when Lorien would return to finish its business with Sheridan). If the Hand would have been too successful, they would have returned to finish what they perceived as one of their tasks.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 01, 2002).]
 
I'm not in the loop when it comes to getting the scoop on Legends of the Rangers plot points before its released.

I do think speculating about what releases the imprisoned race would be interesting.

Above, I forgot the name, implies that the race chose to exit the prison that the First One's confined them to after the First One's had departed. This would suggest that they could sense beyond their prison; could leave at will; and were still no match for the Vorlons and Shadows that remained until "Into the fire".

Initially, I didn't buy into the implied point that the 'hand' could leave their prison at will. But, given the point about their being no match for the Shadows and Vorlons, well then the prison probably made them extra vulnerable to the Shadows and Vorlons (single basket of eggs as it were). So, their election to leave the prison after the First One's depart could make sense. Further, this capability may have been something that they eventually developed over the eons, not having it initially.

I would prefer this to the jaded possibility of someone from the younger races rubbing an old oil lamp, releasing the 'hand' from their prison to do horrible things. I expect this construct sounds familiar.

You know, in Thirdspace, as far as we know, the Vorlons did not directly assist B5 in any way. Indirectly through the 'race memories' in Lyta they helped. But, it is interesting that the Vorlons did not return to deal with their gate. It suggests that either they don't monitor the galaxy any longer; they are leaving the younger races to fend for themselves no matter the threat; or that they knew that the younger races could handle the threat through the gate.

For those who've read the technomage books, you know that we learned that the mages were involved in many actions and events that were previously described on the b5 series but without any indication of mage involvement. It was really cool to read about these additions to the story line. With this in mind, I can't help but wonder if there was a Vorlon task force in hyperspace prepared to fend off the malicious aliens from the other side of the gate (Thirdspace) in case the B5 folk failed to drive them off. Just because this wasn't mentioned in Thirdspace does not mean it didn't happen.

So, would the Vorlons and/or Shadows come back to help the younger races if an ancient or intergalactic power threatened them? Makes you wonder, especially the intergalactic part possibilities. Afterall, the B5 universe has not yet involved other galaxies.

Cheers,

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So, would the Vorlons and/or Shadows come back to help the younger races if an ancient or intergalactic power threatened them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it would depend on three matters:

1. Would they notice?
2. Would they care?
3. Would they be too far?

In the era preceeding Lorien's return and final departure in "Sleeping in Light", I somehow imagine that the Shadows, Vorlons and others still waited in close proximity. Waiting a mere twenty years for a being as revered as Lorien would be nothing for them.

This means that in the imaginary case of large Thirdspace ships getting through (or the Hand succeeding) they would have most likely probably noticed, cared and returned to do their duty, for one last time.

After Lorien was no longer bound by appointments, they probably set their course for the nearest place of interest and stomped on the throttle. Stomping on the throttle would be done with maximum speed.

Therefore returning would take a time equal to leaving. Depending on the distance, this might be years, decades, centuries... any time unless they would do a Jeff Valen manouver. Unfortunately, such a manouver is unlikely to be repeated, especcially by First Ones. Getting into a time-loop where you still live at the time of your future self going back... would be too interesting. Besides, excessive time-travel tends to ruin storylines.

Therefore the probability of them returning would quickly decrease from 2278 onwards.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 01, 2002).]
 
i like the idea that the hand may be imprisoned- and i agree with the fact that the vorlons and shadows were stronger- but i dont think they are monitoring the young races- first before the shadows and vorlons and first ones would have known in a call to arms that the drahk were using a left over shadow planet killer and would have gotten involved. I think its fair to say they are gone for good and arent coming back anytime soon(cept for sheridan leaving)

The vorlons were sure the thirdspace jump-gate wouldnt be gound- cause they themselves couldnt find it- lyta says that the ones not effect by the Thirdspace aliens teep powers ejected the gate into hyperspace never to be found again-- so i doubt they knew- or could have helped because obviously even the vorlons were suseptiable to the aliens--- and as for the minbari or any other race usuing vorlon tech- i doubt it even more because Lyta says that no1 can enter vorlon homeworld- and would assume the surrounding space for 10000000years or whatever it was-- so their tech is pretty much secert- And the drakh could never get to it- cause in reality they are strounger then the E.A. but not that much stronger tot ake on the Vorlons-

The only tech left around in the shadow tech- cause we know from crusade and other sources the E.A. is still working with it- geting it to work beyond anyones knowing-- if u remember the Crusade script th at was never producet


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Galen and Gideon folow the hybrid bakc to an E.A. special ops base dealing wit shadow tech </font></td></tr></table>

so perhaps the E.A. is able to find a weaknes because of that-- which would tie crusade wit LotR (as jms said he mite do because crusade may not be revived-

and even in the trailers the hand seem to be rather stronge and advanced in tech and possible strategy- better than the drakh and other races but not as bad as the shadows and vorlons and even rememeber the younger races expoilted the shadow weakness to teeps so in all due time we shall know LotR's full arch!~!~
smile.gif


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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>would have known in a call to arms that the drahk were using a left over shadow planet killer and would have gotten involved<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They might not notice a single instance of using a specific weapon. But they probably would notice an all-out war.

Besides, I suspect that the Drakh version of the Shadow planetkiller was simply a crude copy. Remember that one of the Shadow planetkillers trapped the *entire fleet* of the younger races at Coriana 6.

Had it had vulnerable points, the Vorlons would have exploited them. Against a planetkiller built and operated by Shadows, the fleet defending Earth would been pretty helpless. Therefore I suspect that the Shadows passed the Drakh version off as a wooden tank.

As for Minbari access to Vorlon tech, well, they have access to everything needed to build White Stars. No living ships, but perhaps organic armor. Perhaps a few weapons, but no adequate power source.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 01, 2002).]
 
eirik wrote

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
You know, in Thirdspace, as far as we know, the Vorlons did not directly assist B5 in any way. Indirectly through the 'race memories' in Lyta they helped. But, it is interesting that the Vorlons did not return to deal with their gate. It suggests that either they don't monitor the galaxy any longer; they are leaving the younger races to fend for themselves no matter the threat; or that they knew that the younger races could handle the threat through the gate.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Something transmitted a Psi warning to Lyta. Remember the way she was falling over like a drunk at the start of "Thirdspace"? This was either the Vorlons or one of their warning systems. These warnings started whilst the gate was still in hyperspace and before it had been powered up, so they were not triggered by the gate itself. There also appears to have been a fight for control of her brain.

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Andrew Swallow
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The Hand" in the new B5 movie. according to what i know it is an alien race that was banished by the first ones thousands of millions years ago. This leads me to believe in a few certain points. They can most likely wipe the floor with any of the current races still in the galaxy. Also they probely arn't as powerfull as the Vorlons of the Shadows do the fact that they were banished. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
where did you here this? have you seen the movie? i will admit i was a bit critical of the idea of another first one race who

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> "make the shadows look like insects" </font></td></tr></table>

when we already know that the period between Objects at Rest and A Call to Arms (according the the ISN broadcast and other sources throughout the movie) was a period of relative peace, barring the telepath crisis of course. but the idea that "The Hand" as a race whose power exceeds (see spoiler/quote) the shadows, who were older than the vorlons, is not a bad idea when you think about it that the Hand was imprisoned. perhaps their power is great but their forces are limited and after being imprisoned so long they are not so used to fighting as the younger races are. the rangers could easily spend the better part of this show trying to secretly undermine the Hand's efforts out on the rim of known space without the general publics knowledge. i dont think sheridan would want to announce to the ISA member worlds that there is a first one race out there who rivals or even exceeds the shadows when he could undermine their forces in secret instead. just a thought.

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?
 
Could the Hand be responsible for...

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>the destruction of earths sun as seen in The Deconstruction of Falling Stars. Earths sun is a relatively young one and as of now has BILLIONS, not one million years left. also the "Ranger" at the end did not seem suprised that it was happening but did mention that they were "evacuating" and heading for new earth or something like that. </font></td></tr></table>


anyway, that would be interesting since i dont think anyone expects the Drahk to ever reach the power of the Shadows and probably wouldnt last as the ISA's main enemy that long either. at least not without allies. even the shadows needed allies...
...but this is trailing of my main point. what if the Hand becomes mankinds great enemy and they are responsible for this great catastrophe. Rangers could just serve to be the beginning of their secret ascension and the first ship to fight them, thus setting up latter stories. just a thought.

------------------
Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?
 
I would believe that if the Hand were to become a permanent great enemy, they would have affected history enough to be mentioned in "Deconstruction". But they were not.

So they could just be a nice lead-in to a new series, never having much part in the actual story. Something like the Sigma 957 walkers.

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
I'm not in the loop when it comes to getting the scoop on Legends of the Rangers plot points before its released.

I do think speculating about what releases the imprisoned race would be interesting.

Above, I forgot the name, implies that the race chose to exit the prison that the First One's confined them to after the First One's had departed. This would suggest that they could sense beyond their prison; could leave at will; and were still no match for the Vorlons and Shadows that remained until "Into the fire".

Initially, I didn't buy into the implied point that the 'hand' could leave their prison at will. But, given the point about their being no match for the Shadows and Vorlons, well then the prison probably made them extra vulnerable to the Shadows and Vorlons (single basket of eggs as it were). So, their election to leave the prison after the First One's depart could make sense. Further, this capability may have been something that they eventually developed over the eons, not having it initially.

I would prefer this to the jaded possibility of someone from the younger races rubbing an old oil lamp, releasing the 'hand' from their prison to do horrible things. I expect this construct sounds familiar.

You know, in Thirdspace, as far as we know, the Vorlons did not directly assist B5 in any way. Indirectly through the 'race memories' in Lyta they helped. But, it is interesting that the Vorlons did not return to deal with their gate. It suggests that either they don't monitor the galaxy any longer; they are leaving the younger races to fend for themselves no matter the threat; or that they knew that the younger races could handle the threat through the gate.

For those who've read the technomage books, you know that we learned that the mages were involved in many actions and events that were previously described on the b5 series but without any indication of mage involvement. It was really cool to read about these additions to the story line. With this in mind, I can't help but wonder if there was a Vorlon task force in hyperspace prepared to fend off the malicious aliens from the other side of the gate (Thirdspace) in case the B5 folk failed to drive them off. Just because this wasn't mentioned in Thirdspace does not mean it didn't happen.

So, would the Vorlons and/or Shadows come back to help the younger races if an ancient or intergalactic power threatened them? Makes you wonder, especially the intergalactic part possibilities. Afterall, the B5 universe has not yet involved other galaxies.

Cheers,

Eirik

------------------
It never ends; it only changes!
 
I think thats possible. I was a bit un sure regarding the new race. But the thought that the vorlons + shadows were protecting the younger races from them makes the whole thing easier to swallow.

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* "That hardly seems likely, does it?" >>>^<<<
 
Speculating about ANY of the First Ones coming back to help against the Hand is pretty far fetched.

Not because of the Logic presented.

Because of the way JMS works as a Storyteller.
Having "God" save your butt is a really unsatisfying way to end a story.

"And then, A Miracle Happens." is a Trek ending.

In a JMS story, the main characters are going to have to solve the problem themselves.

Besides, JMS said once before, even if God were available for guest appearances, She costs too much.
wink.gif
laugh.gif


------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Speculating about ANY of the First Ones coming back to help against the Hand is pretty far fetched.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I speculate for the sake of speculation, being ever aware that this is not what happened.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Having "God" save your butt is a really unsatisfying way to end a story.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having it kick your butt in the first place is unsatisfying as well. Which is why I tend to believe that the statement about "making the Shadows look like insects" was:

A. Literal.
B. Said by a person with no direct experience with Shadow technology.
 
nevertheless, where did the information about the Hand being a firstone race banished or imprisoned by the shadows and vorlons and other first ones come from? what is the official source? or is this ALL just speculation...

on a side thought, the concept of the Shadows and Vorlons working together on anything, even if it was just temporary to banish another race, is fascinating.

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>on a side thought, the concept of the Shadows and Vorlons working together on anything {snip} is fascinating<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If it happened, it must have happened a long time ago. Before they got irrevocably carried away with their order versus chaos dispute.

Given that First Ones were more numerous and diverse before (most left after they deemed their work done) there were certainly alliances or conflicts between them.

And even later, when they acted mainly as guardians to the younger races, they might have had common interests. Regardless of individual biases, none of the First Ones would be happy to see thirdspacers or the Hand messing around in the galaxy. Such activities might threaten their goals or their safety.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
I like how far from the basic info one can get. wonder how far on changing it you all would of if a waited a few more days. Well first off I said from what I've heard that they were banished by the first ones. This doesn't mean that they were a first one. Remember that the Minbari are not considered a younger race, rather as a middlechild. I think that they are not more powerfull then the shadows or the vorlons, I dont believe there even close. Also one must remember that even though JMS is a genious this is this is working on a new plot line, and it may become to impossible to get everything right, though I hope he does. And also in the episode where they're covering events they only talk about events that changed the galaxy. Also I very much doubt they were imprisoned and that is not the same thing as Banished. It is probely quite simple to figure out, they were banished out of this part in the galaxy or the galaxy it self. They probely send probes or some sort of scout into the area every some 100 years or 1000 years or 10000 years of whatever. As with The typical luck that falls in the B5 universe it happened a few years after the safty net was removed. Will the first ones return? I would like to see a combined vorlon/shadow fleet come in and whipe the floor with a person. Rememeber they had the goal to bring up the younger races as parents would. When you first let then go out on there own do you leave and not think another thing of it or do you watch outside of their view for a little. Remember Lorien came 20 years later, perhaps they gave them 20 years to prove themselves truly ready?
Last thing I shall say on this now is the crusade possibility. If the series starts out it will only start a few years before crusade did. Also remember the Crusade plot was supposed to be envelpoed by something else more important. Could that have been the hand? Now that we have another series to work on why not move the hand idea up a few years. I possibility is that the movie takes care of a scout fleet of some sort, and in a few years till approx 1 year after crusade started the full force comes out on the rim. Kind of like the war the Minbari fought and no one knew who they were really fighting. Remember the fact that JMS had a relitvely peacefull first two seasons, even another half before the war happened. The same effect may be taken effect here.
For the record i love that fact that i can finally talk to people who know what they're talking about, i find my friends much less intelligent.
The information you ask, I know all, I see all.

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The Shadow Nitpicking Team refrains from further speculation until L - 0. Then the SNT will obtain tremendous amounts of spoilers and analyze them thoroughly... to be more confused than ever before.
laugh.gif


[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 02, 2002).]
 
Everyone so far has talked about the Hand being banished First Ones or middle chindren, but what about the possibility of them being from a different galaxy? From "beyound the rim" perhaps? I mean, if the First Ones (Vorlons, Shadows, Lorien, Sigma 957 Walkers, etc.) passed beyound the rim of the Milky Way, is it impossible to imagine that they were headed for, probably not just the nothingness in between, but possibly to other galaxies? What if the Hand are another galaxy's equivalent of the Vorlons? The only problem I see with this theory is the banner-ad I saw on a website somewhere, the one with a pic of G'Kar, and then of a Hand ship, followed by the words "Remember that Shadows? These guys used to take their lunch money." This implies that the Hand are more powerful than the Shadows. Maybe the Hand sent out a small-ish force for reconaissance purposes, that was summarily destroyed by the Shadows, maybe with the Vorlon's help, but with heavy casualties (hence the "lunch money") to one or both of them? I don't know: I'm just tossing ideas around here, but I think that it's a distinct possibility, though Trek, and it's various incarnations, have played with the inter-galactic-evil- alien-race type plots before, which is reason enough to avoid it.

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Religion is the opious of the
masses.
-Marx
 
I'd like to echo a growing sentiment among the posters, including lyta... That is, I would hope that the 'hand' that are introduced in the Legends of the Rangers movie are not simply swept away, end of story.

Lyta... opens up an interesting thought, wouldn't it be cool if the Rangers should determine that traversing the barrier of whatever it is that contained (or banished) the 'hand' requires an unknown amount of time that ranges in the years. This way, we'll have to fight off the 'hand' in full-force, unlike Thirdspace where our B5 friends dealt only with a scout force. We're faced with uncertainty of when...

BTW, one could readily accept 'the hand' as being one severely stirred up nest of hornets after finally escaping the imprisonment or banishment of so many years. Truth be told, a story teller could come up with a rationale for why they come out as peace-loving monks but I like the angry hornets thing best right now.

Imagine these 'hand' forming alliances with the Drakh, Wurt, Streib, and others, only to have conflict amongst themselves. Perhaps, an alliance of convenience as between Roosevelt/Churchill and Stalin, between Sheridan and the Drakh. Oh, the possibilities, the possibilities. Let the series begin...now, NOW!

As Garibaldi observed, we mark the passage of time with wars. I don't know why but I am in the mood to watch some major ass kicking for some freaking compelling cause...'no moral ambiguities' as G'Kar said!

mad.gif


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It never ends; it only changes!
 
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