The Minbari suck

[GKarsEye]

The Minbari are a bunch of punks.

- They start a war over a mistake. They knew it was a mistake. Delenn and others were complaining about the war and oh gosh what a shame, but everyone just ran around saying how it was too late to stop it and they had to see it to the end. Bullshit- stop it, that's called leadership. If they were able to stop the fighting after kidnapping Sinclair, they could have done it before (the Grey Council never said why they surrendered anyway).

- The war was a "holy war." Also known, in some circles, as a Crusade, or a jihad. That is some scary shit. Religious fanaticism used for violence. This makes Delenn and the Grey Council a bunch of evil war criminals no better than Osama Bin Laden.

- Some people think Sheridan and Londo are "arrogant." What about Delenn and Shaal Mayan complaining about how contemptable humans are because some of them plotted to kill ambassadors. The events of the Gathering should have taught them to shut the hell up about blaming a race for the actions of one bad apple.
(I also don't remember if Deathwalker happened before that, which really speaks badly for them)

- Look at how they manipulated Sinclair and Sheridan. Man, I don't know how they put up with that shit.

- They hate Sheridan because he blew up their flagship. Um.. hello.. they were trying to annihilate their entire civilisation?!
If someone tried to kill me, you bet your ass I won't be following some BS code of "honor."
(which is why I don't like Franklin's decision not to help create a biological weapon, but that's another issue)

- When a couple of them find out that Valen is Sinclair, they're afraid of telling everyone because it would violate their sense of "purity." Uh.. purity of the race... yes, that sounds eerily familiar.

Fuck the Minbari.

 

[LondosHair]

 

[Fas]

That's all true, but they could kick your ass. And even if they are a bunch of hypocrites in the end of the series they get to run the galaxy (as the capital of the IA, and ensuring the leader of the Rangers will always be a Minbari like Delenn, or a human puppet).

 

[KoshFan]

I think the vast majority of Minbari are either homicidal honor-bound lunatics, self-righteous zealots, or regular shmucks who just happen to be in the third and least-dominant caste.

When the workers take over after the civil war, I bet a few changes were made.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

I'll take a cue from Londoshair with no further comment from me .

 

[RW7427]

I should have known this was GKE starting this thread.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

They start a war over a mistake.

They *do* consider their leaders too precious, and invest them with needless authority (like power to start wars). But now, GKarsEye... please mention a B5 civilization which behaves differently from this.

-- Should its emperor be assassinated, would the Centauri Republic refrain from war?
-- Should its president be assassinated, would Earth Alliance refrain from war?

I don't think so... not reliably. Only a civilization which has *no* centralized leadership... could *reliably* refrain from considering their killing a hostile act.

"Babylon 5" does contain one such civilization -- the Shadows. We are not introduced to any system of leadership within their society... so presumably, they have no central leader to kill.

Ironically, they manage to start wars regardless.

They knew it was a mistake.

The crew of the Earth convoy which followed orders to shoot first... also knew it was a mistake.

It was not a "single bad apple". It was a whole cartload of bad apples, all obediently following the orders of a really rotten fruit.

It does *not* pardon the Minbari for utterly failing to perform a proportional response (destroy some sufficiently high-profile ships, then negotiate peace)...

...but it does indict the Humans for cultivating irrational, hazardous and possibly self-destructive methods of first contact.

Delenn and others were complaining about the war and oh gosh what a shame, but everyone just ran around saying how it was too late to stop it and they had to see it to the end.

Entirely correct. Stopping hostilities took them *far* too long. But now consider how many human societies... would have stopped instead of the Minbari? Very few.

In identical situation... most human societies would have been overtaken by desire for retribution... and two diseases of the mind: patriotism and obedience.

Bullshit- stop it, that's called leadership.

I commend the attitude. Now... may I remind you... that some Minbari surely *did* exactly that. Your blanket condemnation of them... is hence quite baseless.

The war was a "holy war." Also known, in some circles, as a Crusade, or a jihad. That is some scary shit. Religious fanaticism used for violence.

A cult of personality towards Dukhat, and resulting attribution of unacceptable tones of meaning to war... is scary shit.

However, a cult of personality is *not* religion... and in fact... the Earth-Minbari war was completely devoid of religious incitement to violence.

Nobody urged nobody to kill anyone because of their belief. The war was entirely retribution. Mindless and un-proportional retribution, but *not* on religious grounds.

This makes Delenn and the Grey Council a bunch of evil war criminals no better than Osama Bin Laden.

You are mistaken. Opposite way around.

Even the closest match... the Human captain commanding the exploration convoy...does *not* properly resemble Osama. I remind you that Osama knew what he planned (had a long-term plan of igniting conflict).

The Human captain lacked such intent. Delenn too lacked long-term desire for violence. She did desire retribution... but that disappeared quickly. Others too realized that Minbari had nothing to gain from eradicating Humans.

Osama, to my last information, has not retracted his declarations... and to his best ability, still wants destruction for most of Western civilization.

Finally, to my knowledge, Delenn did not authorize attacking civilian targets... and due to fighting occurring mostly in space, war crimes committed by both sides were relatively few.

Surely, both Minbari and Humans authorized torture of prisoners... which does create a disturbing resemblance between Delenn and Bush... but likewise between the Earth government and Bush.

But neither side behaved quite like Ossama. The Minbari intended to... but eventually decided against. Unfulfilled intent does not count.

Some people think Sheridan and Londo are "arrogant." What about Delenn

Delenn can sometimes be... fairly decisive and uncompromizing. Without such ability, she could not possibly be a politician. But we need examples to compare them. Will you present some?

Look at how they manipulated Sinclair and Sheridan.

Correct. Now observe how Earth politicians manipulated fellow Humans.

They hate Sheridan because he blew up their flagship.

Your statement, lacking a qualifier... implies that every Minbari does. That is simply untrue.

which is why I don't like Franklin's decision not to help create a biological weapon

I like it. He was refraining from escalating a pointless conflict.

In their warfare, Minbari were respecting basic decency... and not attacking civilian population, despite having every capability of doing it.

Should Humans have attacked Minbari civilians, Minbari could have started responding in kind. Franklin knew it would have *notably* complicated defusing the conflict.

He decided that he would err on the safe side... and the central command could find a swamp where to ski. Such a decision was his undeniable personal right, and he should not have been incarcerated for that.

 

[GKarsEye]

-- Should its emperor be assassinated, would the Centauri Republic refrain from war?

Yes, if it were politically beneficial.
The Centauri are extremely practical, politically savvy and selfish.
Cartagia was assassinated, and so many probably knew who did it. If it was a popular emperor who was similarly assassinated, heads would roll. But everyone kind of forgot about it because they were really happy that mad man was gone.

-- Should its president be assassinated, would Earth Alliance refrain from war?

Its president was assassinated, and when there was action to investigate who did it, it was cut, and the System and people accepted it. The ensuing civil war cited the assassination as only one reason, but that's not why Sheridan went to war- the reason was the slaughter of innocent civilians.

The crew of the Earth convoy which followed orders to shoot first... also knew it was a mistake.

Not at the time. They saw an alien war ship with open gun ports.

..but it does indict the Humans for cultivating irrational, hazardous and possibly self-destructive methods of first contact.

True. But in this case, the weight of responsibility of proper behavior falls on the part with more advancement and experience. Humans were very new to this game and the Minbari were old hats. They should be better at first contact. Dukhat understood the jaw-dropping stupidity of approaching with open gun ports. it's amazing that this isn't in the Minbari First Contact Handbook.

Entirely correct. Stopping hostilities took them *far* too long. But now consider how many human societies... would have stopped instead of the Minbari? Very few.

In identical situation... most human societies would have been overtaken by desire for retribution... and two diseases of the mind: patriotism and obedience.

So? Others being bad doesn't excuse them for being bad.
And yes, wars are started, but there's a difference between a war and one party obliterating the existence of another much weaker than them, slaughtering defenseless warships and refusing surrender.

I commend the attitude. Now... may I remind you... that some Minbari surely *did* exactly that. Your blanket condemnation of them... is hence quite baseless.

Yeah, when, at the verge of complete annihilation, and only when it met some abstract religious thing (Sinclair had a Minbari "soul")

However, a cult of personality is *not* religion... and in fact... the Earth-Minbari war was completely devoid of religious incitement to violence.

This is simply not true. Dukhat was a religious figure. The religious caste declared it a "holy war," Delenn admitted as much. If that's not a "religious incitement to violence," I don't know what is.

Any society that can summon religion as a justification for unspeakable acts of horror is inherently immoral.

Delenn too lacked long-term desire for violence. She did desire retribution... but that disappeared quickly. Others too realized that Minbari had nothing to gain from eradicating Humans.

But they proceeded anyway. I think that makes it even worse.

Delenn can sometimes be... fairly decisive and uncompromizing. Without such ability, she could not possibly be a politician. But we need examples to compare them. Will you present some?

I did- condeming humanity for the actions of Ivanova's Home Guard ex-boyfriend. Hautingly criticising other groups for the faults yours possesses in equal degree is the height of arrogance.

Your statement, lacking a qualifier... implies that every Minbari does. That is simply untrue.

Most of them do. Same difference. This goes back to the "you can't generalise" argument. Yes, often you can, that's what the disciplines of the social sciences are based on.

In their warfare, Minbari were respecting basic decency... and not attacking civilian population, despite having every capability of doing it.

A mission to destroy all of humanity is not basic decency.

Should Humans have attacked Minbari civilians, Minbari could have started responding in kind. Franklin knew it would have *notably* complicated defusing the conflict.

He decided that he would err on the safe side... and the central command could find a swamp where to ski. Such a decision was his undeniable personal right, and he should not have been incarcerated for that.

You're treating this is a typical little political war. It wasn't- it was the preservation of a planet's people.


PS- I think it's so cute that this is like a real argument

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Not at the time. They saw an alien war ship with open gun ports.

So, what did that see? An alien ship being careful, making a gesture of distrust and hostility. Definitely *not* a ship to provoke. Instead, perhaps a ship to take distance from.

Dukhat understood the jaw-dropping stupidity of approaching with open gun ports.

In case of a party of unknown intent, having weapons ready to fire... is not stupid. Approaching too close, where such fire can actually hit... now that is stupid.

As witnessed by the effects of a Human ship point-blanking a Minbari ship... they had good reason to keep gun ports open. They were at range where even a Human ship might hope to mug them.

Of course, both parties had even better reason to keep safe distance.

But they proceeded anyway. I think that makes it even worse.

They proceeded until they ran out of clearly distinguishable military targets bearing weapons against them -- until the opponent civilization was essentially disarmed.

Despite being gross over-reaction... it doesn't make the Minbari particularly criminal. Merely inflexible and somewhat stupid.

If the next step Minbari planned... was indeed destroying Earth... now that would have been criminal. But planning a crime, only to refrain from committing it... is not the same as committing a crime.

A mission to destroy all of humanity is not basic decency.

Conveniently for the Minbari, they never got started with any *action* indicating desire to destroy indiscriminately.

This suggests they were either doubting... or oppositely fairly very devious (leaving genocide for a point when they would be capable of doing it quick, before anyone could interfere).

What they really thought... could only be determined by polling fictional Minbari on what they really intended. (Minbari being fictional makes this task somewhat difficult.)

You're treating this is a typical little political war. It wasn't- it was the preservation of a planet's people.

There is NO "typical" war -- every war, even an peacekeeping effort gone awry... can bring mass destruction of innocent lives.

Sidenote: an interstellar civilization losing a life-or-death struggle... should *never* behave like Humans in "Babylon 5" did. Trying to preserve a planet... can cost dearly.

Space is infinite, and gives excellent protection against pursuit. If war in space looks like a definite loss... the losing side should be smart enough to gather their stuff... and scatter. At full speed. In every imaginable direction.

Only a fool would start chasing ships *designed* to operate on the run. From the point of realizing that loss is certain... the civilization losing should start hedging bets... splitting up and disappearing from sight.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Pardon for slipping off topic.
In concise form, I wanted to say:

"Minbari may suck... but most species of air-breathing humanoid can be predicted to suck. It's not a surprise that Minbari match this prediction. After all, nearly everyone does."

 

[GKarsEye]

I'm not saying the humans were justified in blowing up Dukhat's ship. That was stupid and pigheaded. This thread isn't about humans. I lambast them all the time in the off-topic forum.

Despite being gross over-reaction... it doesn't make the Minbari particularly criminal. Merely inflexible and somewhat stupid.

Same difference. Either way they're assholes.

If the next step Minbari planned... was indeed destroying Earth... now that would have been criminal. But planning a crime, only to refrain from committing it... is not the same as committing a crime.

It is my opinion that the reason behind these actions makes them assholes.

Space is infinite, and gives excellent protection against pursuit. If war in space looks like a definite loss... the losing side should be smart enough to gather their stuff... and scatter. At full speed. In every imaginable direction.

Right... so let them destroy earth...
I'm sure glad you're not an important military position.


Other reasons to hate Minbari:
- In Parliament of Dreams, compare the rituals displayed by the Minbari to that of the Centauri. Who would you rather party with?
"I stand between the candle and.." zzzzzzzzzz

- They have a religion without a god. What the fuck?

- They dress awful. I mean, what the hell is with Delenn and those MC Hammer pants in season 1? And why did she have lipstick and the others didn't?

- The chicks look kinda like the dudes. That is just all kinds of messed up.

- Their spaceships look like giant space squids, like a caricature of an HP Lovecraft creature.

- "A ritual for saying hello, and ritual for saying goodbye, etc" to paraphrase Delenn. Jesus Christ, they make the Passover Sedar seem thrilling.

- They have a disturbing tendency to succumb to cults of personality, be it Dukhat or "the One." "We live for the one, we die for the one." I've always hated that. Living and dying for a good cause, yes, that can be honorable, but for a person? That's crazy.

 

[Demon]

- Their spaceships look like giant space squids, like a caricature of an HP Lovecraft creature.

Now this I must take issue with. The Vorlons' spaceships are MUCH more like giant space squids!

 

[Sindatur]

Yea, The Minbari cruisers are more like Dolphins swimming upside down.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Either way they're assholes.

Unfortunately, they are not alone in said condition.

It is my opinion that the reason behind these actions makes them assholes.

People with an overbloated sense of honor... are not liable to disclose the *real* reasons behind their choices. Do you really think the Council believed in Humans having Minbari souls? I don't think so.

What they did believe... was probably that, should they fail stopping the campaign they had started with some reason, yet permitted to run amok beyond all sensible limits...

...they would lose most existing allies. That in turn, should notable strife occur (for example, should the tales about Shadows prove true)... could prove really bad for the interests of Minbari civilization.

Right... so let them destroy earth...
I'm sure glad you're not an important military position.

Dearest GKarsEye, please examine my statement with some patience. I *never* claimed that principles reasonable in infinite three-dimensional space...

...should be reasonable when you exist on a two-dimensional surface -- where every square meter gives certain resources, either to you or another, or if burnt, then to nobody.

Our civilization is currently planet-bound, so naturally we have different ways. In current-day human conflicts, controlling surface matters. In space, different rules can be expected to apply.

I can only concur on the point... that I am fortunate to have completely avoided military positions of any kind (except strictly civilian lectures on defense studies, which I took of curiosity). People who dislike hierarchy... are not terribly compatible with today's military structures. I can honestly promise I will forever avoid becoming part of one.

- They have a religion without a god. What the fuck?

Clear indication of striving to improve. Would you prefer them taking a step backwards, and adding a god or two?

- They dress awful.

Don't expect bikinis. They come from a planet where "freezing" is the standard weather.

I mean, what the hell is with Delenn and those MC Hammer pants in season 1?

You can have big pockets in puffy pants. Great for carrying along snacks, beverages, PDAs, CD players and Swiss knives. In case the conference turns boring. Upon hull breach, most diplomats would simply choke, but a Minbari representative in traditional clothing... can be expected to simply dig in pockets, and find a spare breather.

- Their spaceships look like giant space squids,

Vorlon ships look like squids. Minbari ships look like fish. They even have fins.

- They have a disturbing tendency to succumb to cults of personality, be it Dukhat or "the One."

They do. Hopefully the ISA will arrange them counselling, and the problem will be defeated.

 

[Demon]

I mean, what the hell is with Delenn and those MC Hammer pants in season 1?

You can have big pockets in puffy pants. Great for carrying along snacks, beverages, PDAs, CD players and Swiss knives. In case the conference turns boring. Upon hull breach, most diplomats would simply choke, but a Minbari representative in traditional clothing... can be expected to simply dig in pockets, and find a spare breather.

Which will give them a HUGE advantage if they ever have another war with humanity, after Kevin the designer has removed all pockets from the Earthforce uniforms!

 

[PillowRock]

Yea, The Minbari cruisers are more like Dolphins swimming upside down.

I agree that is was the Vorlon ships that look like squid.

However, what the Minbari war cruisers always looked like to me was angel fish (the fresh water kind that are fairly common in home aquariums). In fact, I thought they were such dead ringers for angel fish that it never occurred to me that someone might use a different point of comparison.

 

[GKarsEye]

The Vorlons' spaceships are MUCH more like giant space squids!

Well then fuck the Vorlons, too. They're also assholes. That's probably why the Minbari are jerks- they worship even bigger jerks.

Do you really think the Council believed in Humans having Minbari souls? I don't think so.

I think the religious ones believed something was up, and the rest were startled enough by the triluminary to at least wait and see what happens with it.

[quoteWhat they did believe... was probably that, should they fail stopping the campaign they had started with some reason, yet permitted to run amok beyond all sensible limits...

...they would lose most existing allies. That in turn, should notable strife occur (for example, should the tales about Shadows prove true)... could prove really bad for the interests of Minbari civilization.

[/quote]

You're reaching here. The Minbari were on a Crusade- they were not thinking about allies and politics. Allies for what, the coming Shadow War? They didn't even believe in it.

Our civilization is currently planet-bound, so naturally we have different ways. In current-day human conflicts, controlling surface matters. In space, different rules can be expected to apply.

That changes nothing. If evil Canadians tried to destroy New York, I'd glady let loose and anti-Canada virus.

hey have a religion without a god. What the fuck?



Clear indication of striving to improve. Would you prefer them taking a step backwards, and adding a god or two?

Why not just go all the way and not have a religion at all? You can have a philosophy without religion, like the Confucionists.

They come from a planet where "freezing" is the standard weather.

I hate the cold. Another reason the Minbari suck.


No space ships should look like fish! Narn cruisers look pretty bad-ass. But then they seem break a lot.

 

[Demon]

The Vorlons' spaceships are MUCH more like giant space squids!

Well then fuck the Vorlons, too. They're also assholes. That's probably why the Minbari are jerks- they worship even bigger jerks.

Is it possible to fuck a Vorlon? They're a bit insubtantial for that. Even their assholes :devil:

And while I agree that Minbari Warriors are definitely jerks with seriously bad attitudes, and Minbari Religious sect are a little too holier than thou for my personal tastes, I suspect that Minbari Workers are pretty OK, but they ought to assert themselves more often, and tell the other two castes to take a hike

Have you ever thought what the Minbari/Earth conflict would have been like if the Warrior caste had decided not to play? Every time the Religious sect broke for lunch, they'd have got their asses kicked. They take WAY too long preparing their food, and setting portions aside for imaginary guests

 

[wolfranger]

Have you ever thought what the Minbari/Earth conflict would have been like if the Warrior caste had decided not to play? Every time the Religious sect broke for lunch, they'd have got their asses kicked. They take WAY too long preparing their food, and setting portions aside for imaginary guests

Can you imagine if the Warrior class fought like the Religious Class ate. Fire Weapons, Now we meditate and pray that the shot hits our enemies before we take another shot.

 

[B5obsessive]

In my opinion, GKE, you are expecting aliens to conform to human psycology. This is unreasonable. Try to see it from the Minbari view. Their greatest leader had been killed without explanation, when they had only been following their own customs and could never have thought of that action being misinterpreted They went mad with grief, lost their collective senses and hit back in a rage. I also don't like the disdain inherent in your "obscure religious concept" comment. Religion is very important to many people, and is just as valid a reason for our actions as any. I also do not agree with your idea that Stephen was wrong in destroying his notes. If a race is wrong in trying to wipe us out, we are no more right if we respond in kind. Also, remember that we are shown in "Atonement" that Delenn is haunted by her part in the carnage of the war, and I get the feeling that a large part of the religious caste at least are disgusted by what they almost did in a fit of race insanity.