Suckers (spoilers)

[Lord Refa]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
But I would argue that we still don't have an inkling that "Shadows" is the name of the creatures behind that black ship, nor the slightest hint that they represent an ancient evil and the counterpart of the Vorlons, things that only really emerge in S2. [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always like to argue with someone who knows what he's talking about...

All the hints were present in the episode Signs And Portens:

The lady (name?) who came with Lord Kiro could see ito the future. She told on one of Lord Kiro's birthdays he would one day be killed by 'The Shadows'. And he was on board the raider ship when The Shadows destroyed it. So was The Eye, but somehow Morden was able to give it back to Londo at the end of the episode. So we have a connection between the name 'Shadows' and the black ships, and between the black ships and Morden.

While Morden is on board Babylon 5 earlier that episode, he runs into ambassador Kosh. The first time he avoids him, possebly without being seen. The second time (during the raider attack on the station?), Kosh comes at him saying: 'Leave this place! They are not for you!'. We didn't see Morden leave, in fact I remember he looked like he was going to resist or dare him or something. Later we find out Kosh's encounter suit was damaged during the fight [with the raiders]. So here we have a hint that Morden's superiors are the counterpart of the Vorlons.

Of course, I don't think anyone figured this out the first time viewing Season 1. I only realized it after I watched all 110 episodes several times.

BTW, JMS compared an unfilmed episode of Crusade, To The Ends Of The Earth, with this one. He said both were episodes where the real story arc kicks in. If you read the script, you know what I'm talking about.

(PS I wrote this all from memory, so there maybe a few minor details incorrect.)

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"I don't watch TV. It’s a cultural wasteland filled with inappropriate metaphors and an unrealistic portrayal of life created by the liberal media-elite."

 

[Recoil]

Ive read those unfilmed scripts in Crusade and have to agree with you, that there is where the turning point was going to take place. Many thought those were the season 1 finales for Crusade, but at only 14 or 15 on the episode list, they would have been season mid points right? B5 had Signs and Portents as its midpoint, where the arc kicked in, it looked like Crusade was going to do the same thing, timewise, I am sure given a chance Rangers will give some hints around that time as well...

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Many thought those were the season 1 finales for Crusade, but at only 14 or 15 on the episode list, they would have been season mid points right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"To the Ends of the Earth" would have been aired around the 2/3 mark of S1, while "The End of the Line" was the season finale/cliff-hanger. Because they had a pre-planned story for each season, both B5 and Crusade could shoot out of order to save time and money. If an expensive were going to be used in episodes 3, 9 and 18, but not otherwise, they could build it once and shoot those three back to back. The numbers on the scripts referred to production order, not the eventual airing order.

"Chrysalis", the B5 S1 cliff-hanger, was shot twelfth in the production run, even though it would air as episode 22. JMS knew that he would need extra post-production time for the show, so he wrote it early and moved it up on the production schedule. This happened several times during B5, when they knew that a big "FX" show was coming.

This is one of the reasons that there is no "correct" airing order for Crusade - planned scripts that were never even written would have fit-in between the existing shows.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[bakana]

It was this extra Planning and shooting stuff out of order that helped B5 save a lot of Money and consistently come in Under Budget.

B5 is one of the Only SF shows ever to consistently come in under budget on the majority of episodes.

Trek takes budget overruns almost for Granted.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[EntilSedai]

Off topic (Joe DeMartino? others with knowledge?)

Since JMS and his crew constantly came in underbudget every season, should that not help in getting a series, inasmuch as the production company knows that they wont have to foot extra bills like happens with trek?

Back on topic,

Did not g'kar say "No one here is who he seems." Does that not create a sort of symmetry between the series. Also, did anyone say something similar to that in ACtA?
If so, JMS sure likes to use symmetry in his work. Finally, with the fact that B5 was not exactly as it appeared with that comment, does that mean that LotR will be a little more to the point, as g'kar says "Or does it"(iirc)?

CR

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[Recoil]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
"To the Ends of the Earth" would have been aired around the 2/3 mark of S1, while "The End of the Line" was the season finale/cliff-hanger. Because they had a pre-planned story for each season, both B5 and Crusade could shoot out of order to save time and money. If an expensive were going to be used in episodes 3, 9 and 18, but not otherwise, they could build it once and shoot those three back to back. The numbers on the scripts referred to production order, not the eventual airing order.

"Chrysalis", the B5 S1 cliff-hanger, was shot twelfth in the production run, even though it would air as episode 22. JMS knew that he would need extra post-production time for the show, so he wrote it early and moved it up on the production schedule. This happened several times during B5, when they knew that a big "FX" show was coming.

This is one of the reasons that there is no "correct" airing order for Crusade - planned scripts that were never even written would have fit-in between the existing shows.

Regards,

Joe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh,

I always thought it took place right after the other one. Well that makes sense that it would be a good S1 cliffhanger with how it ends and all

Thanks for the info.

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'I don't believe in the no-win scenario' - JTK

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

A lot of the show was a kind of in-joke commentary on itself. Dusting off an old ship and getting it back into space anyone? Sarah asking David, "Do we have a mission?" ("Do we have a series?"

)

I think JMS was having fun (bad jokes and all) and that is a good thing to see. I think he's right, in some ways Rangers has more of the early B5 energy and sense of fun that Crusade did, because he's more relaxed (even if he did have to crank out the script on an impossible deadline and deal with things like the weapons pod costing to much to build, hence the "bird on a wire" approach we ended up with.)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[GaribaldiHairs]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EntilSedai:
Did not g'kar say "No one here is who he seems." Does that not create a sort of symmetry between the series.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's more than just a principle of symmetry. This sentence is what I personnaly call the...

"ABSOLUTE LAW #1 OF BABYLON 5 UNIVERSE"

In fact EVERYTHING in the original series and the movies gravitate around that law. And in my opinion it's one of the major element that make the JMS universe SO different and attractive.

Take nothing for asset. And some negative peoples about B5LR should realize that. A prisoner tell the crew that "The Hand" is the next big evil after Shadow. Maybe it's seem so, but I'll never bet on that. Not while JMS is still writting the script.

- Garibaldi's Hairs



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When I said my quarters were cold, I did not mean "Oh, I think it is a little chilly in here. Perhaps I'll throw a blanket on the bed." No! I said it was cold! As in, "Oh look - my left arm has snapped off like an icicle and shattered on the floor!"
- Londo

 

[GaribaldiHairs]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
A lot of the show was a kind of in-joke commentary on itself. Dusting off an old ship and getting it back into space anyone? Sarah asking David, "Do we have a mission?" ("Do we have a series?"

)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It's EXACTLY my feeling. Throughout all the movie I feeled the same way. Espacially at the very end, when G'Kar ask the crew if they come aboard. Dylan to answer something like "Not right now. But hopefuly in a near futur". Then G'Kar to continue "You should! It's quite a place, [...] and at the end a place of great hope".

Just. Plain. WOW.

It's one of the other side of JMS I love. The way he talk to his fans trough the show.


- Garibladi's Hairs




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When I said my quarters were cold, I did not mean "Oh, I think it is a little chilly in here. Perhaps I'll throw a blanket on the bed." No! I said it was cold! As in, "Oh look - my left arm has snapped off like an icicle and shattered on the floor!"
- Londo

 

[Technomage Roanna]

Marry me, Joe D.

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A ship in a port is safe, but that's not what ships are for.

Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper

 

[EntilSedai]

havin fun is what makes jms great, along with superb forshadowing, backstory and fan jokes that are inane to newbies

CR

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[pvdh]

just my two (euro)cents

In b5, we were ed to believe the vorlons were the good guys, the shadows the bad.. In the end I feel it was more like they were oposite sides of a bad thing (interfering 'parents' if you will).

Kosh was an OK Vorlon in principle, but did not represent the 'general' vorlon stand.

In rangers, the hand does not have to be this all bad opponent, it might nerely be a big guy who slaps you beats you up because you stepped into his territory. In rangers I feel they mainly try to prevent the ambassadors from seeing something they do not want them to see, be it in a kinda crude and violent way. Then they go to great lenghts to retrieve their loyal servant.

They are dangerous, yes but not evil until proven guilty..

Of course I could be completely wrong here, but it does show the obvious plot is not what it seems to be..

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Minds are like windows, they only function when open!

 

[gkarfan]

Joe DM, I agree that JMS seemed like he must have had fun writing Rangers. After what happened with Crusade, I think it was good for him to just write comic-books for awhile. He loves them, after all, & at least he didn't have to deal with network-executives for awhile. It looks like the time away was good for him, because he does seem like he's happier now.

Now, if we could just get more Legend of the Rangers from him & SFC, & no more network-executives-without-aclue (like the TNT ones), I think the B5 universe will be okay.

Tammy

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"We're in here! Can anyone hear us?"
"I hear you." [giggle, laugh]
"In here!"
"We are here." [giggle, laugh]
-- Londo and G'Kar in Babylon 5:"Convictions"

Tammy's Station
http://community.webtv.net/gkarfan/TammysStation

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> at least he didn't have to deal with network-executives for awhile. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, he had to deal with Comic Company executives instead.

Same breed, just a slightly different aroma to the slime.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[Dave Thomer]

In fairness, all the comics types JMS has dealt with so far have taken the 'write what you want, Joe, and we'll print it' approach, which was the farthest thing from what he encountered during Crusade. It certainly would not surprise me to hear he got a few extra hours' sleep in the process, which would certainly explain why Rangers had a little more zip to it.

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Dave Thomer
This Is Not News

 

[bakana]

Dave, no one Re-Writes any of JMS stuff anymore because that's the only terms he accepts these days.

He's posted several times that the only reason he moved up the ladder from "staff writer" was so he could Get to that point.

He just kept moving up the food chain until he got the job that allowed him to say: "Hands Off My Script, dog boy!"

Even on Crusade, he had that. That's why the TNTidiots couldn't do anything except send him harassing Notes.
"No Rewrites" was in his contract.

If it hadn't been, they'd have just gotten a tame hack and butchered away.
Which is what happens on Most TV shows.


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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."