Strange naval terminology

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 13, 2002

I find it strange that some parts of naval terminology seem to have changed by the 23rd century.
The Agamemnon and other ships of her class are universaly called "destroyers". Whereas the Hyperion was a "heavy cruiser". This is odd, as the omegas are certainly much larger than the hyperion ships.
So by EA terminology, a destroyer is the largest type of ship.

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4

KoshN · Jan 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by breen:
I find it strange that some parts of naval terminology seem to have changed by the 23rd century.
The Agamemnon and other ships of her class are universaly called "destroyers". Whereas the Hyperion was a "heavy cruiser". This is odd, as the omegas are certainly much larger than the hyperion ships.
So by EA terminology, a destroyer is the largest type of ship.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're not the only one who finds this strange.

EA:
Omega Class Destroyer is more like a battleship/aircraft carrier.

Hyperion Heavy Cruiser is more like a destroyer (at best), or a Corvette (at worst). The Hyperion kinda reminds me of the WWII lend-lease destroyers the US sent over to England, obsolete, but better than nothing.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

A_M_Swallow · Jan 13, 2002

With a crew of 50 are Whitestars frigates?

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Andrew Swallow

bakana · Jan 13, 2002

Remember that we're talking about a future where all the Armed forces around the globe have been Merged into a more or less single entity.

Plus, chances are that the Space command was dominated, at least in the Early stages, by Air Force officers. By the time the Navy people got transferred in, the damage was done.
As it is, we also ended up with a mishmash of ranks, with Majors (a Soldier's rank) mixed in with mostly Navy ranks.

The structure seems to have lost several titles: Ensign, for instance, and Admiral.

On the Gropo side, the confusing "captain" at the lower rank seems to be gone in favor of the Navy "Captain" which is equivalent to Colonel. But, there are also still Colonels.
Whether they are still equal to a Captain, we don't know.

And, Ivanova ended up a General, in spite of being in the Shiphandler branch, so we can be pretty sure they decided to drop Admirals.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Mondo Londo · Jan 13, 2002

I think the ship classifications in B5 may have been influenced by the Star Wars universe, where the largest warships are Star Destroyers, though there are some Super Star Destroyers, and of course, a Death Star or two...

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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi

[This message has been edited by Mondo Londo (edited January 13, 2002).]

Nukemall · Jan 13, 2002

The Omega class destroyers are newer than the Hyperion class cruisers - Hyperions date back pre-Minbari war, whereas the Omegas are post war. This should explain the difference in size and armament, though I find it odd that they should clasify them as destroyers rather than cruisers.

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"And you, madam, are ugly. But I shall be sober in the morning." - Winston Churchill
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com

KoshN · Jan 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
My guess:

Earth has been developing quickly, acquiring alien technology and cactching up with its neigbours. When the Hyperion class was commissioned, they were top-of-the-line cruisers. When the Omegas appeared, most Hyperions were already considered space junk, but they kept the name "cruisers".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
I guess that "cruiser" no longer denotes strength, but the tactical purpose of a ship. A destroyer engages ships. A cruiser might be biased towards attacking large structures (space stations, colonies and planets).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Destroyers (in the 20th century use of the class name) were used to screen/protect the larger ships of the battle group (battleships, heavy cruisers, light cruisers, and aircraft carriers), and for harassing, high speed attacks on the enemy's big ships. However, they're not meant to stand there and go toe to toe with the enemy's big ships. In B5 terms, this would be the role of the fighters.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:

Which would explain it for Earth Force. How the other species organize their fleets is a completely different matter.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the Narn, Centauri, Minbari, Shadow, and Vorlon fleets follow the 20th century naval convention more closely. EA/ISA's got it backwards.

EA:
Starfury=PT boat thru destroyer role (almost like a M4 Sherman tank, a.k.a. the Ronson lighter, one hit and it's gone)
Hyperion=Old, obsolete destroyer, should have been recycled long ago.
Omega=relatively new, heavy cruiser.
Advanced Omegas (with Shadowtech spines)=new, heavy cruiser.
Warlock=battleship

ISA:
Victory Class=battleship
Whitestar class=heavy cruiser or pocket battleship

Vorlon:
Fighter=destroyer
Transport= heavy or light cruiser, depending on size.
Dreadnaught=battleship
Planet Killer=super battleship

Shadow:
Fighter=destroyer
Scout=recon., almost unarmed.
Battlecrab=heavy cruiser thru battleship, depending on size.

Minbari:
Nial Fighter=PT boat thru destroyer
Sharlin Warcruiser=battleship

Narn:
Fighter=PT boat thru destroyer
G'Quan=Heavy Cruiser

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 13, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Mondo Londo:
I think the ship classifications in B5 may have been influenced by the Star Wars universe, where the largest warships are Star Destroyers, though there are some Super Star Destroyers, and of course, a Death Star or two...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But the Empire has larger ships called Star Cruisers, Star Battlecruisers, and Star Battleships, all of which are larger that a common destroyer.
I've always thought that in B5, the names of ships (at least EA, the rest all have big cruisers), it more denotes their role. Destroyers destroy, but the cruisers seem to have more of an escort role.

Quagmire · Jan 14, 2002

I think this is one point where JMS just did not do enough homework on military terminology. It's a relatively minor point so it's not that big of a deal.

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"Crying isn't gonna get your dog back. Unless your tears smell like dog food. So you can sit here eating can after can of dog food until your tears smell like dog food or you can go out there and find your dog."-Homer in The Canine Mutiny

superbob · Jan 14, 2002

It may well be that JMS didn't do his homework or alternatively he did do his homework and decided to do what he always does, His own thing!
Bearing in mind that all the the defense sevices were amalgamated into one entity. From there I think that ranks were "chosen" according to the new standards implemented in this new defense force.
For instance a general is viewed as being in the thick of things where as an Admiral is somewhat aloof. Maybe JMS wanted to do somthing differnt here and notconform to the norm.
Secondly with regards to the fleet. Think about the Psychological edge of it. Earth is now part of a far larger community than it was used ever since the Earth/Minbari wars. All the other species have "DESTROYERS" as flagships or Capital ships. You can't very well go into a battle against a destroyer while you flying around in a "cruiser".
Besides "destroyer" sounds a helluva lot more final!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 14, 2002

My guess:

Earth has been developing quickly, acquiring alien technology and catching up with its neigbours. When the Hyperion class was commissioned, they were top-of-the-line cruisers. When the Omegas appeared, most Hyperions were already considered space junk, but they kept the name "cruisers".

I guess that "cruiser" no longer denotes strength, but the tactical purpose of a ship. A destroyer engages ships. A cruiser might be biased towards attacking large structures (space stations, colonies and planets).

Which would explain it for Earth Force. How the other species organize their fleets is a completely different matter.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 13, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 14, 2002

Minbari call their largest ships "warcruisers". The Narn call them "heavy cruisers". The centauri call them "battlecruisers", I think.

Of course, that means little. As these terms are merely translations of the race's respective languages.

[This message has been edited by breen (edited January 13, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 14, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Theisman:
But the Empire has larger ships called Star Cruisers, Star Battlecruisers, and Star Battleships, all of which are larger that a common destroyer.
I've always thought that in B5, the names of ships (at least EA, the rest all have big cruisers), it more denotes their role. Destroyers destroy, but the cruisers seem to have more of an escort role.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone's been reading reading the Star Wars Technical Commentaries too much. In the SW universe, Imperial capital ships of the line are the Star Destroyers, equivalent to present day guided missile cruisers, a rather powerful warship, capable of handling almost anything that can be thrown at it. The next grade up are the Super Star Destroyers, the penultimate warship seen in the SW universe, and topped in firepower only by Palpatine's Eclipse. There are no in-betweens, merely badly drawn comic book art.

In a vague effort to loosely tie this into B5, my guess is that Mondo Londo's assessment is fairly accurate. Present day naval vessels run in the following general order <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> Patrol Boat/ Corvette
<LI> Frigate
<LI> Destroyer/ Cruiser
<LI> Battlecruiser
<LI> Battleship/ Aircraft Carrier*[/list]

* I've classed these two at the same spot because they are equivalent dependant on the era one wishes to discuss, and at differing times were/are the most powerful warships around.

Naval nomenclature has also changed in recent times. Cruiser is now associated almost exclusively with the Aegis class fleet air-defence ships. Vessels correctly classed as battlecruisers serve in navies around the world, and include the Kirov class in Russian service. Historically, these vessels packed a similar punch to battleships, yet were faster and more lightly armoured. That holds true today for those still in service.

In that spirit, a Starfury/ Thunderbolt would be a patrol boat analogue, while Omegas are heavy ships of the line, the big gun ships. Hyperions are merely outdated technology which would fit into the same grade as Omegas. Whitestars would fit into the frigate category, and the Victory and Excalibur would be the battlecruiser analogues of the Earth fleet.

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I am grey, I stand between the candle and the star.
We are grey, we have no bloody fashion sense.

KoshN · Jan 14, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by superbob:
It may well be that JMS didn't do his homework or alternatively he did do his homework and decided to do what he always does, His own thing!
Bearing in mind that all the the defense sevices were amalgamated into one entity. From there I think that ranks were "chosen" according to the new standards implemented in this new defense force.
For instance a general is viewed as being in the thick of things where as an Admiral is somewhat aloof. Maybe JMS wanted to do somthing differnt here and notconform to the norm.
Secondly with regards to the fleet. Think about the Psychological edge of it. Earth is now part of a far larger community than it was used ever since the Earth/Minbari wars. All the other species have "DESTROYERS" as flagships or Capital ships. You can't very well go into a battle against a destroyer while you flying around in a "cruiser".
Besides "destroyer" sounds a helluva lot more final!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, EA is the one who's background has the destroyer being a small, fast ship, and the rest of the governments follow more closely the traditional human navy nomenclature. So, things are exactly the reciprocal of the way they ought to be.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

KoshN · Jan 14, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Caesar:
In a vague effort to loosely tie this into B5, my guess is that Mondo Londo's assessment is fairly accurate. Present day naval vessels run in the following general order <UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI> Patrol Boat/ Corvette
<LI> Frigate
<LI> Destroyer/ Cruiser
<LI> Battlecruiser
<LI> Battleship/ Aircraft Carrier*[/list]

* I've classed these two at the same spot because they are equivalent dependant on the era one wishes to discuss, and at differing times were/are the most powerful warships around.

Naval nomenclature has also changed in recent times. Cruiser is now associated almost exclusively with the Aegis class fleet air-defence ships. Vessels correctly classed as battlecruisers serve in navies around the world, and include the Kirov class in Russian service. Historically, these vessels packed a similar punch to battleships, yet were faster and more lightly armoured. That holds true today for those still in service.

In that spirit, a Starfury/ Thunderbolt would be a patrol boat analogue, while Omegas are heavy ships of the line, the big gun ships. Hyperions are merely outdated technology which would fit into the same grade as Omegas. Whitestars would fit into the frigate category, and the Victory and Excalibur would be the battlecruiser analogues of the Earth fleet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whitestars pack a helluva lot more punch than a frigate. A Whitestar could go up against an Omega and blow it to bits with ease.

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KoshN
-------------
Vorlon Empire

"To Live and Die in Starlight"
pilot movie for "Babylon 5 - The Legend of the Rangers"
January 19, 2002 at 9PM & 11PM EST, January 20, 2002 at 5PM on The Sci-Fi Channel (US).
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 14, 2002

The White Star is a Minbari frigate with Vorlon additions. It is a frigate compared to Minbari cruisers, but quite equal to Earth Alliance heavy war vessels.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

bakana · Jan 14, 2002

WRT more or less Current Naval designs, it is wise to remember that the switch from a Battleship navy to an Aircraft navy changed the role of a Destroyer quite a bit.

Battleships were very capable of taking care of themselves, so in the Battleship navy, Destroyers took an agressive role in battles.

Aircraft Carriers, otoh, are sitting ducks with very little armament of their own, so the entire fleet gets tasked with a protective role WRT the carrier.

The Frigate/Destroyer's role is at least 50% defense in the "modern" Navy.

And you can argue in both directions about which is the better strategy.

Battleships could take care of themselves, so they allowed a more aggerssive stance for the entire fleet.

Carriers allow large parts of the battle to take place hundreds of miles away, so the fleet doesn't Have to defend itself if the planes do a good job.

It's that "IF" that really hurts.

Anyone who questions a Battleship's ability to take punishment is invited to check out the story of the German Battleship Bismarck during WW2.
After their rudder was destroyed, turning the ship into a sitting duck, it withstood everything the entire British Fleet could throw at it for 19 Hours.
The British were beginning to run out of Ammo by the time the thing finally started sinking.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 14, 2002

I suspect that the modern equivalent of the Starfury are aircraft rather than ships. The Starfuries are performing similar roles to naval helicopters and Harriers - surveillance and light defence. Modern British destroyers, for example, carry one or two helicopters.

Like aircraft, Starfuries are not equipped with sleeping or eating quarters. Unlike ships, they have to land everyday to refuel and take on air.

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Andrew Swallow

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 15, 2002

A BG explenation/excuse about the Omega...
It is said that the name came from the battle for funding - the navy mis-named it "Destroyer" so the politicos would think "oh, only funding for a destroyer, let 'em have that" and sign the paperwork.

That written I also don't know where that "Destroyer" designation for a Hvy.Cruiser/Carrier comes from... or exactly what JMS was thinking when he wrote that... and I am annoyed by it too.

And the WhiteStar IS a frigate, though a high-tech frigate. It can defeat an Omega, but only if it's lucky - one really good hit with a heavy laser ansd the WS is history (but to land such a hit the Omega would have to get very lucky...). We all saw that in "No Surrender, No Retreat".

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"ShadowScout"
Roman Alexander

"Go on, watch out for Shadows - we'll watch you right back!"

What do you want?
ShadowShips!

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 15, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:

Anyone who questions a Battleship's ability to take punishment is invited to check out the story of the German Battleship Bismarck during WW2.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, according to a Senior Chief I used to work for, during the Gulf War, the skipper of the battleship was asked by a reporter what he would do if any Iraqi missiles hit his ship, he replied that he'd pass the word to hold sweepers.
Any other ship, the 1MC would blare general quarters, missile inbound. On a BB, it'd be Sweepers, sweepers, man your brooms.

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Darkwing
Let's..get..dangerous

Strange naval terminology

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