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So, what did happen to Sinclair?

E

EnforcerSG

New member
Hi. Hope this has not been debated to death before (did a search, didn't find anything, hope I looked hard enough). Basically what happened to Sinclair after he fought (and won against) the Shadows 1000 years ago?

My personal theory? After living a long good life with someone, he died and was taken beyond the rim like Sheridan was. I don't suppose that can be confirmed at all, but to me, it is the only answer that makes sense.
 
Spoilers of a bit of the final pages of the book To Dream In The City Of Sorrows to follow.

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Well, from the very end of To Dream In The City Of Sorrows where Marcus gets the letter that Sinclair/Valen left for him, I assume Sinclair/Valen eventually went on to find where Catherine Sakai had gone when she was lost into the time rift.

Beyond that, I don't know; though, I'm sure someone else on here does.

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We know that Sinclair/Valen had children, and we have strong reason to believe that he found CS in the past, so we have to assume that if she was found she also underwent transformation, else he had a Minbari wife and a human lover! :eek:

Now, it is fun to speculate about him going "beyond the rim" like Sheridan, because his death was mysterious, but that may not be, because Sinclair, when being born, inherits the soul of Valen (which in a nice circular pattern I like to think of as passing between Valen and Sinclair without ever having been created! :p)

I think it somewhat sad, in fact, to contemplate Sinclair leaving behind Catherine (or, if she died first, his soul losing its link to her) to go BTR.
 
If you'll recall, Kosh II told Rathenn that 'He is the closed circle' (referring to Sinclair) in WWE I. It stands to reason that Valen couldn't go beyond the rim if his soul has to subsequently reborn as Jeff Sinclair so he can become Valen again...and again...and again. Valen/Sinclair's soul would have to perpetually remain available.

Living in a closed circle - IOW being reborn as the same person over and over. That would be a bummer.

V/R
John
 
What? Sinclair was born in the 2200's, went back in time to the 1200's, and died there. There is no circle. Ulkesh was refering to Sinclair fulfilling his destiny, going to the past to become Valen.
 
Whatever became of him... he certainly pulled a good enough disappearance trick.

Naturally, anything less would have risked someone hostile tracking down where he came from.
 
What? Sinclair was born in the 2200's, went back in time to the 1200's, and died there. There is no circle. Ulkesh was refering to Sinclair fulfilling his destiny, going to the past to become Valen.
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Really? Does JMS actually say this? From everything I have read, it is kept deliberately "fuzzy." In fact, according to some JMS hints, Delenn's "final journey" is a quest to find out what happened to valen.

(Incidently, in looking for info on this, I discovered what Delenn's words "I knew you would come for me" meant in Deathwalker... she was seeing him as Valen, who had sworn to her as a child that he would allow no harm to come to her in his "great house" - see Confessions and Lamentations. Doh! I dunno how I missed this before).
 
(Incidently, in looking for info on this, I discovered what Delenn's words "I knew you would come for me" meant in Deathwalker... she was seeing him as Valen, who had sworn to her as a child that he would allow no harm to come to her in his "great house"
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Um, wasn't that in Soul Hunter, rather than Deathwalker? :confused:
 
What? Sinclair was born in the 2200's, went back in time to the 1200's, and died there. There is no circle. Ulkesh was refering to Sinclair fulfilling his destiny, going to the past to become Valen.
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So whose soul is it that comes along 860 years later and pops into Jeff Sinclair when he's conceived? Time doesn't stop when Valen err...does his disappearing act. It continues to run, and Valen's soul shows up once again. Since Jeff Sinclair's past is the future Valen has to preserve, the circle continues.

Why does Jeff take B4 back? Because he's always taken it back before and always will. He says as much in WWE II. That's the 'closed' circle. Jeff/Valen is caught in a time loop (as is Zathras, if you think about it).

V/R
John
 
Not entirely necessarily. Given reincarnation, it's certainly possible, but it still doesn't exclude the simple option that Valen's soul was originally Sinclair's, born in the 2200's, travelling back in time, and then dying. Nobody said it had to be Valen's soul that stuck around. In fact, that's one of the bits I rather liked about the loop--all the detection about Sinclair having Valen's soul wasn't quite, because it was detecting Sinclair's soul, since he was in fact Valen, or turned into Valen, or whathaveyou.

You could have the infinite loop reincarnated soul theory. Or you could have a simple beginning and end to a single soul, where the end just happens to come before the beginning. Both are equally valid and plausible explanations.

Cheers,
-mcn
 
I prefer to avoid making the existence / nature of soul... a central question in any debate. Because such debate would quickly get silly.

Happens when the subject matter is difficult to objectively analyze, and understood differently by many people, with some perceiving it as fixed and others fluid.

For example, I could ask the tricky question... of whether I am now... the same person I was a moment before. Naturally I am... yet strictly speaking, I am not. :)

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Another tricky issue... is Babylon 4. If Babylon 4 degraded like an ordinary space station should... it was by no means finished 1000 years later.

Consequently, the particles locked into the formation called Babylon 4... existed where the station degraded... and in the new station! :eek:

So, unless the very process of time travel in "Babylon 5"... somehow addresses this paradox, the little trip undertaken by Babylon 4 is likely to position the same matter in two places, lightyears apart. :eek:
 
You could have the infinite loop reincarnated soul theory. Or you could have a simple beginning and end to a single soul, where the end just happens to come before the beginning. Both are equally valid and plausible explanations.
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My head hurts :(
 
Agree about the souls, and that's why i noted that "this is the way I like to think about this" as opposed to stating anything like an actual theory, because theorizing about the completely unknown is kinda futile! :LOL: Hypothesizing isn't even the term, probably "fantasizing" is closer.

And if you buy Joe DeM's argument that it is, in fact, DNA that is being detected (and since the ThreePointyFlashlight is clearly able to ACT on DNA,this makes sense as well) then there is no "soul" to concern ourselves with at all.

And as for the aprticles bit, of course this is correct, but is correct whether the LongAgo B4 degraded or not: the particles ('cept some radioactive ones) do indeed spend time located in the same universe... but the colocation begins when B4 arrives back in time, because the same atoms that would eventually be forged to make her already existed 1000 years ago.
 
And if you buy Joe DeM's argument that it is, in fact, DNA that is being detected...
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It's not just Joe D's argument, it's also Delenn's; she says that the triluminaries were geared to detect DNA and they only thought it was detecting souls.
 
I prefer to avoid making the existence / nature of soul... a central question in any debate. Because such debate would quickly get silly.
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Very wise :)

So, unless the very process of time travel in "Babylon 5"... somehow addresses this paradox, the little trip undertaken by Babylon 4 is likely to position the same matter in two places, lightyears apart. :eek:
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At this point, I feel compelled to quote the relevant passage from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (once again proving the brilliance that was D. Adams :)

(Note: I copied this from another quote site, since I don't have the book itself in front of me, so any typos are theirs, not mine :)

One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of accidentally becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem involved in becoming your own father or mother that a broadminded and well adjusted family can't cope with. There is also no problem about changing the course of history - the course of history does not change because it all fits together like a jigsaw. All the important changes have happened before the things they were supposed to change and it all sorts itself out in the end.


The major problem is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. It will tell you for instance how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described differently according to whether you are talking about it from the standpoint of your own natural time, from a time in the further future, or a time in the further past and is further complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations whilst you are actually travelling from one time to another with the intention of becoming your own mother or father.


Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-Conditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up: And in fact in later editions of the book all the pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs.
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:) :) :) :) :)

Cheers,
-mcn
 
What? Sinclair was born in the 2200's, went back in time to the 1200's, and died there. There is no circle. Ulkesh was refering to Sinclair fulfilling his destiny, going to the past to become Valen.
Click to expand...
Really? Does JMS actually say this? From everything I have read, it is kept deliberately "fuzzy." In fact, according to some JMS hints, Delenn's "final journey" is a quest to find out what happened to valen.
Click to expand...

I see no reason to reject the simple explanation. Sinclair was born, a 100% human, lived to age 42 (2218-2260), transformed into a Minbari/Human hybrid, went back in time to 1260, and lived to about the year 1360.

04/11/1997 07:18 AM

03/05/1997 06:14 AM

Jeffrey David Sinclair:

Born May 3rd, 2218, on Mars. [Official Chronology - B5/Crusade Magazine, No. 20, Mar. 2000]


Sinclair transforms into Valen, on his way back in time to The Great War of 1260-1261. [WWE2]

Valen dies ~1360, after writing the two letters, one to himself and one to Delenn. They're opened 900 years in the future, in 2260 (~Sept.). [Official Chronology - B5/Crusade Magazine, No. 18, Jan. 2000]

So, Sinclair/Valen lived to ~142. Whether he really died, or was taken by the Vorlons, or went to the rim with Lorien, who knows?

01/04/1998 03:35 PM

In 2257, Kosh recognized Sinclair as Valen simply because he knew him from 1260. Vorlons are just long lived. I subscribe to the theory that the triluminaries are just sensing Valen/Sinclair's DNA.
 
Agreed, KoshN. The Minbari only thought Sinclair had inherited Valen's soul, because that was the only way they knew how to interpret the triluminary. There's no reason to think that actually had anything to do with it.
 
I second Elenopa after reading the hitchhiker's quote; my head hurts.
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There's a simple and often helpfull piece of advice that's on the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy that might relieve your headache: Don't Panic.
 
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