Rewatch #3 Big theme ideas and questions

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Vir and Lenier are portrayed as almost complete mirror opposites, G'Kar's attache gets dropped out due to casting issues (as i've recently learned) although T'Lon functions as a sort of stand-in. My question is What was the story arc for her intended to be? A willing convert to G'Kar's new philosophy, a rebel against it, obedient but reluctant assistant? Did the mirroring only take place because there wasn't a 3rd character to balance between V/L?

I didn't watch the show from start to finish until i fished a B5/Crusade set out of the bargain bin at a Big Box in '09 (i think) and didn't rewatch until after seeing some 20th anniversary vids on utube, so I've missed all the fandom discussions.

 

[Looney]

I honestly can't recall at the moment. I'm sure someone has a better memory than I. Hopefully they will stop by soon and reply. The Holidays have me in a blur at the moment.

 

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Be a good little Mimbari??

The inquisitor tells Delenn to be be a good little mimbari and obey and conform, but that's not what mimbari do. The windswords disobey the council to attack Kosh and shield Deathwalker, Delenn disobeys the council for the chrysalis and sorta by reading the Eye on Mimbar section of the paper to find out what she's not being told. The Tragati disobeys the order to surrender and has to be getting support from someone to stay functioning after 10+ years in space. Lenier tells lies of omission and commission when convenient, and actively and inactively disobeys orders. Neroon sets up his caste leader for failure and embarrassment. The list goes on and on. The Vorlon think or imagine them an obedient and orderly "client" race (Yes, I see the show with a Cold War-raised mentality) and reflective of Vorlon ideals, but that's not who they really are, is it?

Just wondering if anyone else had noticed the dichotomy.

 

[Springer]

Re: Be a good little Mimbari??

In their own ways, both the Vorlons and the Shadows misjudged the younger races' ability to rebel. The Vorlons expected obedience, but instead everyone rose up together and rebelled against them. The Shadows expected everyone to start fighting one another, but instead everyone rose up together and rebelled against them.

The irony is, everyone was doing a pretty good job at fighting each other before the Shadows came along - the Centauri occupation of Narn, the Dilgar War, the Earth-Minbari War – and the different races only unified with one another, ultimately forming an Interstellar Alliance that seemingly lasted millennia, in response to the Shadows. If the Shadows had wanted everyone to fight, they should have just stayed on Z'Ha'Dum and let everyone get on with it!

 

[hypatia]

That's a good point. It may have simply been inconceivable that such alliances were even possible. And the younger races couldn't have succeeded without an ace up their sleeve, working with The First One.

 

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Enough power to destroy but not control, haven't heard of that problem before! LOL

I wonder about Pres Clark now, was he rebelling against the Shadows by turning the EA insular or was it some deep plot to have a reserve force to kick over the remaining anthills once the dust settled? Earth become a moot point when the Vorlons entered into direct combat, but it would explain the Shadow tech destroyers.

 

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Re: Be a good little Mimbari??

The irony is, everyone was doing a pretty good job at fighting each other before the Shadows came along - the Centauri occupation of Narn, the Dilgar War, the Earth-Minbari War – and the different races only unified with one another, ultimately forming an Interstellar Alliance that seemingly lasted millennia, in response to the Shadows. If the Shadows had wanted everyone to fight, they should have just stayed on Z'Ha'Dum and let everyone get on with it!

If the Vorlons hadn't eliminated Deathwalker, the Shadows almost certainly would have gotten their dream war started - For Free - courtesy of a Vorlon ally. I love this show, so many levels to watch it at and entertaining on all of them.

 

[Springer]

Enough power to destroy but not control, haven't heard of that problem before! LOL

I wonder about Pres Clark now, was he rebelling against the Shadows by turning the EA insular or was it some deep plot to have a reserve force to kick over the remaining anthills once the dust settled? Earth become a moot point when the Vorlons entered into direct combat, but it would explain the Shadow tech destroyers.

Maybe by becoming insular, that would foster a general fear of others, and perhaps Earth would then lash out, making preemptive strikes against those they fear?

Humans were new on the scene too, having not been around for the previous war a thousand years ago, so maybe the Shadows were planting seeds now and anticipating that they'll be useful in the next war in another thousand years.

 

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Jumped vs Pushed

Choices, consequences and responsibility are the underpinnings of B5, but - as the interrogator says - to claim you are not influenced by others is ridiculous. Many of the main characters chose to make the big decisions - they Jump, blindly sometimes but they make a decision to act. G'Kar gets Pushed in his pivotal moment, whether by his fathers ghost, a piece of Kosh, the ghosts of christmas, or by god/the cosmos I not certain, but the Push is definitely going on and it redirects his life. Does Lyta Jump or was she Pushed? Bester nails her hard with the reality that she's WITH the Army of Light but not OF it. Only Zack reaches out to her before she falls into darkness and that's personal interest and poorly done. I see her as a victim not a villain and "good guys" as responsible for that fall through the omission of acts of friendship and compassion.

Change my mind.

 

[Springer]

Re: Jumped vs Pushed

Choices, consequences and responsibility are the underpinnings of B5, but - as the interrogator says - to claim you are not influenced by others is ridiculous. Many of the main characters chose to make the big decisions - they Jump, blindly sometimes but they make a decision to act. G'Kar gets Pushed in his pivotal moment, whether by his fathers ghost, a piece of Kosh, the ghosts of christmas, or by god/the cosmos I not certain, but the Push is definitely going on and it redirects his life. Does Lyta Jump or was she Pushed? Bester nails her hard with the reality that she's WITH the Army of Light but not OF it. Only Zack reaches out to her before she falls into darkness and that's personal interest and poorly done. I see her as a victim not a villain and "good guys" as responsible for that fall through the omission of acts of friendship and compassion.

Change my mind.

I don't think I ever saw Lyta as becoming a villain per se (though in Wheel of Fire she started acting like one), more that her aims and goals became unaligned with those of Sheridan etc. Sheridan was friendly with her until Epiphanies, after which he (perhaps rightly) didn't trust her. I think it's not just the fact she blew up Z'Ha'Dum that prompted this, but more so that she wouldn't fully own up to it afterwards and take responsibility - it was all "hypothetical" when she was trying to explain it to him. And somebody with that much power outside his chain of command, prone to acting upon her own impulses, was probably enough to put Sheridan on edge around her.

I really wish Claudia Christian had stayed for season 5, not just because Ivanova was ace, but I think her loss affected other characters too, Ivanova might have been one to try and reach out to Lyta after Byron's death, would she have helped Lyta or tried to stop her?

In terms of what was influencing Lyta, there were so many factors - feeling estranged from the command staff, love and mourning for Byron, and the elephant in the room, what the Vorlons did to her and what subconscious commands remained. The Vorlons were wary of telepaths, destroying Psi Corps might have been in their interests, particularly if it could stop the Shadows using them.

 

[Karajorma]

Re: Jumped vs Pushed

If Claudia Christian had stayed, the plan was to have her and Byron have the romance even though he was all wrong for her. So that probably wouldn't have happened anyway.

 

[LateArrival]

Re: Jumped vs Pushed

If Claudia Christian had stayed, the plan was to have her and Byron have the romance even though he was all wrong for her. So that probably wouldn't have happened anyway.

Perhaps the speculation could shift to season one? Had Lyta's character not been "removed" from the show after the pilot she would have potentially been on scene instead of Talia for all five seasons. She would have been involved not only with Ironheart and his Gift and the telepath underground, but also the growing relationship with Ivanova.

 

[Springer]

Re: Jumped vs Pushed

If Claudia Christian had stayed, the plan was to have her and Byron have the romance even though he was all wrong for her. So that probably wouldn't have happened anyway.

Wasn't the plan that Ivanova would have had to call in the Psi Cops? Lyta was supposed to just become an acolyte of Byron. It would have been interesting to see how Ivanova and Lyta's relationship would have changed after that – but my original point was that at least Ivanova and Lyta would have had Bryon in common, giving Lyta a connection to someone on the command staff, whereas she didn't really have any connection to them in season 5, except for maybe Garibaldi, so Sheridan and co. just couldn't reach her when she became militant. Ivanova may have had more success?

 

[LateArrival]

Re: Jumped vs Pushed

After re-watching Dust to Dust, it would be hard to imagine commander of B5 and secretly latent telepath Ivanova getting romantically involved with the leader of a group of telepaths, calling in her old friend Mr. Bester when Byron and Company went off the rails, and finally arresting Lyta for the "Remember Byron" attacks against Psi Corps.

 

[Looney]

Re: Jumped vs Pushed

After re-watching Dust to Dust, it would be hard to imagine commander of B5 and secretly latent telepath Ivanova getting romantically involved with the leader of a group of telepaths, calling in her old friend Mr. Bester when Byron and Company went off the rails, and finally arresting Lyta for the "Remember Byron" attacks against Psi Corps.

I don't want to imagine it. I want an alternate timeline release of all the Season 5 episodes written with Ivanova in charge.

 

[Springer]

Re: Jumped vs Pushed

I don't want to imagine it. I want an alternate timeline release of all the Season 5 episodes written with Ivanova in charge.

If I could 'like' posts on here, I'd 100% 'like' this one!

Season 5 with Ivanova would have been a completely different beast. Throwing no shade at Tracy Scoggins/Lochley, she was good, but she wasn't Ivanova.

 

[Looney]

How long could it take him?! Hopefully he would still have the notes somewhere. Agreed, Scoggins did a fine job and maybe Lochley comes in at a lower rank as Ivanova's new Second. Just throwing vibes out there because I know JMS isn't reading what I am saying, but maybe he can feel what I am saying. :guffaw:

 

[Karajorma]

How long could it take him?! Hopefully he would still have the notes somewhere.

A major reason S5 started so poorly is because the notes were stolen at a convention. So I doubt he'd have anything at all on S5 Ivanova plans.

 

[Springer]

How long could it take him?! Hopefully he would still have the notes somewhere.

A major reason S5 started so poorly is because the notes were stolen at a convention. So I doubt he'd have anything at all on S5 Ivanova plans.

Suspected thrown out by a cleaner, I think. I was at that convention, and it was a pretty crazy one (the same one just after renewal where Claudia decided not to sign on for season 5, as if JMS didn't have enough to deal with) and there were fans helping him sift through the trash bags looking for them.

 

[Looney]

Suspected thrown out by a cleaner, I think. I was at that convention, and it was a pretty crazy one (the same one just after renewal where Claudia decided not to sign on for season 5, as if JMS didn't have enough to deal with) and there were fans helping him sift through the trash bags looking for them.

WOW!!!!! :wtf:

Now that is a convention experience I would never want to have. OMG! I can't imagine how that felt. I sooooooooooooooooooooooo hope we learn that they were actually stolen. That means there is a chance for recovery. But you do have a personal memory you share with JMS, even if it is a painful memory.:brickwall:

Best and most regretful that I didn't do more Con experience, Space City Con Galveston 2014.

Weirdest Con experience Space City Comic Con 2016 - apparently the the promoter had computer issues when it came to tickets and payment issues when it came to paying the Guests. (I've told this story many times in the past so you may have heard it before.)
The biggest way that effected me was cancelations of panels, the biggest one involving Brent Spiner, Michael Dorn, and Marina Sirtis. They all had their individual panels early on and I missed them for various reasons including one or two of them being canceled for "transportation" reasons. I didn't mind because there was supposed to be a large panel on Sunday. By Sunday they were on the verge of walking out of the building. I think the only reason they didn't was so they could keep making money selling autographs. But they certainly weren't going to stop doing that for an hour to go to a panel. That happened a lot that weekend.

It was a huge Sons of Anarchy reunion weekend. They had 17 to 20 cast members whom mostly refused to do panels because of payment issues. But of course there were professionals like Ron Perlman whom didn't make the fans suffer for what the promoter did and showed up for his panels. I heard of other incidents that were less about the fans, like reportedly Charlie Hunnam throwing punches at staff members.

I knew when I walked in the door there was going to be major issues when I was able to walk passed all the lines and right in because I bought my ticket at the gate. Thousands of people were in line, most of them with VIP Passes that ranged up to as much as $3,000.00. They could not get in because their reservations couldn't be pulled up on computers for verification. And I know many of them had journeyed from faraway lands like Australia. I just mention Australia because I distinctly remember someone from Australia screaming about what was going on. It was still a very good experience, but there was a constant undercurrent of tension that only got worse as the weekend went on. Sunday was just a matter of who was still around and when were they making their early exit. BUT I got to meet:

Alan Ritchson - (I am a big fan of his.) Blue Mountain State, Reacher, most recent TMNT Live Action films.
Robert Picardo - (You have no idea how great it was.)
Danny Treijo - (Oh you have no idea how great it was.)
Jacob Vargas - a personal favorite for anyone who has every seen Allison Anders' GAS, FOOD, LODGING (1992)
Peter Dante - Grandma's Boy and most of Adam Sandler's movies, autograph for a friend, but he is a great guy to meet. Very festive atmosphere about him.
Alex Kingston - Doctor Who, ER and so on
Jason David Frank also an autograph for a friend and he is great.

Seems like there were a few others, but my memory isn't what it use to be. I skipped Perlman because I had already met him 3 years prior after waiting in line for three hours. I wasn't doing that again even though our meeting went very poorly, but that is a story for a different time.