• The new B5TV.COM is here. We've replaced our 16 year old software with flashy new XenForo install. Registration is open again. Password resets will work again. More info here.

Reflections on the Vorlon

Actually in the Bible itself, Gabriel isn't given the rank of archangel, only mentioned as the angel Gabriel. They were both created for different tasks. Gabriel's role is an announcer, the herald. Michael is the warrior archangel, given the role of duffing up Lucifer and rascally rebels like that, and generally defending the heavens against Evil.

I would compare Ulkesh to Lucifer, who looks like an angel but has lost his way, thinking his cause is more important than the intended goal.
Good point. Of course, I was trying to figure out what we humans would have said after seeing Kosh and Ulkesh unveiled. Ulkesh wouldn't have seemed much like Lucifer then! Moreover, the majority of Vorlons have gone the Satan route. It's almost as if the entire heavenly host went bad, and then one or two found their way back.

Reverting to the metaphor, Kosh would be Michael, casting Lucifer out of Heaven. (B5 isn't exactly heaven to those on it, just to those of us watching. Except for "Gray 17 is Missing.")

Ah well. I wish someone would work up the courage to ask JMS for permission to write more books, I'd really enjoy getting more insights into Kosh's character. I haven't read the technomage books yet, though. I gather there's some Vorlon stuff in there?
O.k as one of the older races I feel I should enter my two cents worth of ideas (and if you doult that I'm of the elder race then you can listen to my bones crack as I get up each morning!!)

I dont think Kosh knew that Sheridan would end up going to Z'ha'dum by seeing the future ,if you remember the Ep in the shadow of Z'ha'dum Kosh had no choice but to tell Sheridan the truth (or some of) about Anna, When Kosh showed him the images of the Icarus he was touching Sheridens mind and most likely could see that he would end up going to Z'ha'dum at some time by reading his thoughts and then later in that ep when sheridan asks Kosh to teach him to fight the Shadows ,Kosh would be almost positive Sheridan would go(plus most likely he knew what the Shadows had done to Anne and guessed she might show up).

In series 1 cant remember the ep Kosh has a run in with Morden and his shadow buddy or two,Kosh's suit gets damaged so I guess it was more then just a heated argument, It seemed over Morden trying to side up to the major races on board. I think it at to do with the Vorlons and Shadows rules of engagement as in Kosh couldnt stop Morden from recruiting most likely, so when Kosh convinces the rest of the Vorlons to break the rules to help Sheridan bring around the other races the shadows probobly knew it was at Koshs request(what other Vorlon would of done it?)so they killed Kosh for 1.revenge 2.because he was A threat and #3.as a warning to the Vorlons .
As for him telling Sheridan he would die if he went to Z'ha'dum it was a warning to try to discorage him and a almost sure fire bet at the least, I dont know how he planned to help Sheridan if he had gone while he was alive but most likely the some way he did anyhow by giving Sheridan a peice of himself.

Well the're my thoughts on the matter if Im wrong I'll just chalk it up as the onset of dementia. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Take the Answer to any question, count the number of letters in the answer multiply that by 1000 then subtract the number of times you've asked that question.
That equals the number of new questions that answer just made.
I dunno about that last bit. Kosh told Sheridan that he would not be able to go with him to Z'ha'dum if Kosh asked for the fleet. I think the piece of Kosh that did go was the best Kosh could do.

Here's the thing. Kosh says in "Shadows of Z'ha'dum" that if Sheridan goes, he will die. In "Interludes and Examinations" Kosh says that NOW Sheridan will die, because Kosh cannot go with him. Kosh is quite certain that Sheridan is going to go.

This is the point in my argument when even I get a bit confused. I think the official Vorlon plan, if there was one, was for Sheridan to go to Z'ha'dum and for Kosh to go with him. With a Vorlon along as a bodyguard Sheridan might have had a better chance. But Kosh had forseen that this would not happen, and knew why he would not be going with Sheridan. He was extremely reluctant in "Interludes" because, when he came to the act which he knew had to be done, had forseen would be done, but would result in his death, he hesitated. Sheridan broke down that hesitation and Kosh did what he had to do, what he'd known he'd have to do.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
But Kosh had forseen that this would not happen, and knew why he would not be going with Sheridan.


But Kosh doesn't need to be clairvoyant in order to foresee what the consequences of his breaking the rules are. If I predicted that you'll get your butt kicked if you go to a Red Sox game wearing a Yankee cap, and it happens, that doesn't mean I'm psychic. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif It just means that I can draw a reasonable connection between actions and consequences. Kosh knew the Shadows would exact a price if he used the Vorlon fleet directly against them. If he had escaped, their retribution would have fallen on someone else, so he stayed and took it. This event does not need precognition to explain it.


I don't think the Vorlons planned for Sheridan to go to Z'ha'dum, They only wanted Sheridan to rally the younger races after that they wouldn't care what he did as long as he drove off the shadows.
As for Kosh going with Sheridan there in the flesh(or encounter suit!)so to speak, I dont beleive the Shadows would let a Vorlon onto there planet under any circumstance, remember what Anna said about anything Vorlon touching Z'ha'dum.
I think the only way Kosh could of helped Sheridan was by giving him a piece of himself as he did, just not in the way he intended.

My reasoning is Sheridan going to Z'ha'dum was useless from the Vorlon prespective. they obviosly didn't think of him strapping a few nukes to his head and blowing up the capital, as in the comment "he has opened up an unexpected door". Otherwise the Vorlons would of beleived that Sheridan wouldnt achieve anything at Z'ha'dum witch except for the bombs would of been zip, or worst case Sheridan being turned by the Shadows or at least spare parts for a ship.
Never underestimate the power of stupidity,

for that matter never underestimate the stupidity of those in power.
The line about vorlon things touching z'hadum was just a line so that he would leave his ship. And him destroying the city was very lucky [spoiler] that the defense system was down at the moment.[/spoiler] The whole Sheridan dying is that shadows don't let people off their rock if they don't convert. Kosh was sure he wouldn't turn and thus be killed or at least the Sheridan we knew would be killed. The only part I don't get is how he would have helped him if Kosh hadn't been killed.
I always understood it that the defense system operated by taking over minds -- witness when Delenn, Lyta, and Ivanova go, and only Lennier's autopilot gets them out alive. As there was no one on the White Star, and Sheridan had programmed it to home in on his link or was in some way guiding it in from the ground, the Eye of the Shadows didn't touch it.

As for how Kosh would have helped; really, I imagine him reminding Sheridan of the Vorlon perspective so as to make sure he doesn't go over to the Shadows (not likely anyway) and to watch Sheridan's back. I doubt the Shadow could have snuck up on Kosh; between the two of them they'd have a far better chance of surviving an ambush than just Sheridan alone.

Heck, maybe that stuff about anything Vorlon wasn't just a line, and Kosh was planning on sending the signal that Lyta sends later on. Of course, that's rampant speculation.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Heck, maybe that stuff about anything Vorlon wasn't just a line, and Kosh was planning on sending the signal that Lyta sends later on.

Just a signal would probably not suffice. Z'ha'dum would have to be assured that this "something Vorlon" has any chances. I presume that Lyta's signal only worked because the Shadows were gone, and had tuned their selective burglar alarm to "paranoid" level.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I always understood it that the defense system operated by taking over minds...

We cannot be sure of this... especially as the only one telling us about the Eye was Lyta, who proceeded to have her mind hijacked. I would say this diminishes her credibility in evaluating what attacked them. It could have been a Shadow.

If they would choose to defend (which they might not, given their habit of leaving) I cannot imagine them relying on just one weapon. There would be others. At the very least, Shadow vessels and fighters, which would more than suffice to take down a White Star.

However, unlike some of their weapons, Shadow command structures (at least in that period) were surprisingly centralized. Malfunction in the Eye might have left every system operating on its own judgement, or not operating at all.
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Reflections of the Vorlon

*Kosh looks into a mirror*
Kosh: <musical chimes> Lyta, does this enounter suit make me look fat? <musical chimes>
I wonder if it went like this:

If the Shadows won and the galaxy was driven in chaos, the next war was decided to take place after 10,000 years.

If the Vorlons won and the galaxy was ruled by order, the next
war was decided to take place after 1,000 years.

That could make some sense as the galaxy along with many different races would need more time to recover from total chaos and anarchy than from perfect order and obedience.

Marko Marin
Given the law of increasing entropy, artificially making or keeping a system orderly requires energy. However sometimes, maintaining some degree of order may offer benefit which justifies this expense.

Applying energy (electricity to freeze water in a refrigerator) allows decreasing entropy on small scale (water freezes) only at the cost of increasing entropy on a larger scale (power plant burns fuel).

The problem with Shadows... they were not satisfied with the natural balance. Sure... being less orderly, they could have been more efficient (wasting less energy to maintain structure). For them, it could have worked well. They were adpated to such an existence. Among their own kind, lack of rules did not cause trouble.

Quite possibly for the Vorlons, their model of order worked equally well. After all, in their society, maintaining order did not require opression or violence. They were utterly used to being orderly, and it took little effort to maintain order.

However, when both tried to apply their principles to the younger races, adapted to different modes of life. Application of unsuitable principles caused loss, wasted energy and became terribly inefficient.