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Real-life President Clark

The derogatory things written about Bush are hogwash!

I cannot think of another thing so completely misrepresented by most news organizations as the reaction in Iran to Bush's "Evil" speech. The Fox News Channel had an Iranian expert on who said that most of the news media has it all wrong. He said the vast majority of dissidents/opposition in Iran are elated by Bush's characterization of the Iranian leadership as evil. The huge demonstrations of Iranians that are shown on the news media were orchestrated by the Iranian leadership. The leaders can rapidly turn-out huge demonstrations because all civil servants, university students, government contractors, and others are forced to go or risk losing their jobs or student enrollment. This expert said that most of the people in those gatherings were just obediently being there and only a minority of the people were actually anti-American.

I know Bush used the word 'crusade' once and he and the White House quickly realized this was not a word to be used in the context of our fight against terrorism in a world with so many Islams.

Though I wasn't too thrilled about the rhetorical construct of 'axis of evil', I embrace the concept. 'Axis' harkens to the axis powers of World War II. I don't think that is a worthy parallel. Substitute 'axis' with some other word and I think it is fine. As G'Kar said in 'Late Arrival from Avalon', he was thrilled to aide his new acquaintance 'Arthur' because there was "no moral ambiguity". Reagan's characterization of the Soviet Union had a very profound impact on Soviet dissidents such as Alexander Sahkarov (sp?) and others. It was a rallying cry that helped fortify their collective will to work for change.

The White House, except for the political consultants of course, is thrilled about the discussions that the 'evil/axis' speech has sparked. It is forcing the europeans and others to publicly explain their positions more precisely, affording the White House better opportunities to sway and lead them. I listened to an interview debate on FNC between Richard Perle, a right-wing hawk, and Germany's former Minister of Culture. By the end of the exchange, while I wouldn't say that Perle changed the German dude's mind, it was quite clear that the minister's position on Iraq (they narrowed the subject to Iraq so that they could get more into it) was a hell of a lot more similar to Bush's position than any of us thought.

An unfortunate result of Bush's speech is that people are drawing rather extreme inferences about his objectives and means to acheive them. People are thinking that just because the option of direct conflict is among the means, that Bush is inclined to do so without trying everything else. Further, his administration is most likely, in the even of combat, going to employ assymetric tactics where dissidents/rebels fight the battles on the ground and the US from the air (for the most part) as in Afghanistan.

I do not see arrogance at all in Bush. I've seen all of his speeches in Japan and S. Korea this week. His tone of voice, inflection, and body language, while resolute resonates with humility. Its actually quite astonishing, really. Clinton to his credit was amazing at establishing an empathetic connection with his audience. But even Clinton, overseas, had a bit of difficulty trying not to look like the stereotypical ugly american that is arrogant and self-righteous. Bush, in the narrow sense of exuding humility, is actually doing this better than Clinton, whom I think was the greatest communicator in the White House ever. To be clear, I'm not saying that Bush is communicating more effectively; he still speaks like he's got a pretzel or two in his mouth. He is appearing to foreign leaders as a humble yet resolute man. They love this guy.

Well, this post is way too long so I won't touch on the points about the erosion of privacy and civil rights. I just ask that people be specific about this because I'm not sure what they're referring to.

Cheers,

Eirik

The europeans and others remind a lot of the league of non-aligned worlds from B5 both before and after the formation of the ISA.

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It never ends; it only changes!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eirik:


I cannot think of another thing so completely misrepresented by most news organizations as the reaction in Iran to Bush's "Evil" speech. The Fox News Channel had an Iranian expert on who said that most of the news media has it all wrong. He said the vast majority of dissidents/opposition in Iran are elated by Bush's characterization of the Iranian leadership as evil. The huge demonstrations of Iranians that are shown on the news media were orchestrated by the Iranian leadership. The leaders can rapidly turn-out huge demonstrations because all civil servants, university students, government contractors, and others are forced to go or risk losing their jobs or student enrollment. This expert said that most of the people in those gatherings were just obediently being there and only a minority of the people were actually anti-American.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently he isn't much of an expert, given that the Iranian "leadership" is reformist, as are most university students. They run no danger in being expelled for not going to such demonstrations.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I know Bush used the word 'crusade' once and he and the White House quickly realized this was not a word to be used in the context of our fight against terrorism in a world with so many Islams.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever heard the saying "You never get a second chance to make a first impression"?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Substitute 'axis' with some other word and I think it is fine. As G'Kar said in 'Late Arrival from Avalon', he was thrilled to aide his new acquaintance 'Arthur' because there was "no moral ambiguity". Reagan's characterization of the Soviet Union had a very profound impact on Soviet dissidents such as Alexander Sahkarov (sp?) and others. It was a rallying cry that helped fortify their collective will to work for change.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it wasn't they who brought about the change in the end.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
The White House, except for the political consultants of course, is thrilled about the discussions that the 'evil/axis' speech has sparked. It is forcing the europeans and others to publicly explain their positions more precisely, affording the White House better opportunities to sway and lead them. I listened to an interview debate on FNC between Richard Perle, a right-wing hawk, and Germany's former Minister of Culture. By the end of the exchange, while I wouldn't say that Perle changed the German dude's mind, it was quite clear that the minister's position on Iraq (they narrowed the subject to Iraq so that they could get more into it) was a hell of a lot more similar to Bush's position than any of us thought.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What relevancy do you think a former minister of culture (which wasn't a full minister anyway) has for foreign policy?

And if the White House thinks Europe has any inclination of "being led", then the White House is in for quite a surprise.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
An unfortunate result of Bush's speech is that people are drawing rather extreme inferences about his objectives and means to acheive them. People are thinking that just because the option of direct conflict is among the means, that Bush is inclined to do so without trying everything else. Further, his administration is most likely, in the even of combat, going to employ assymetric tactics where dissidents/rebels fight the battles on the ground and the US from the air (for the most part) as in Afghanistan.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you fail to grasp is that none of these countries _is_ Afghanistan. Ther IS no rebel force like the Northern Alliance in Iraq. Neither is there in Iran.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I do not see arrogance at all in Bush. I've seen all of his speeches in Japan and S. Korea this week. His tone of voice, inflection, and body language, while resolute resonates with humility. Its actually quite astonishing, really. Clinton to his credit was amazing at establishing an empathetic connection with his audience. But even Clinton, overseas, had a bit of difficulty trying not to look like the stereotypical ugly american that is arrogant and self-righteous. Bush, in the narrow sense of exuding humility, is actually doing this better than Clinton, whom I think was the greatest communicator in the White House ever. To be clear, I'm not saying that Bush is communicating more effectively; he still speaks like he's got a pretzel or two in his mouth. He is appearing to foreign leaders as a humble yet resolute man. They love this guy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you are a reference on how american presidents appeal to foreign leaders. And the statement above pretty much fortifies that idea. Clinton was well-respected abroad. Bush most certainly isn't.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>

The europeans and others remind a lot of the league of non-aligned worlds from B5 both before and after the formation of the ISA.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Europeans and others have a whole lot of experience on dealing with terrorism and they also know what it means to have foreign tanks rolling through your streets. They know where answering violence with more violence leads. The fact that someone doesn't want to deal with a problem the way you want to deal with it doesn't mean that that someone doesn't want to deal with it.



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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The europeans and others remind a lot of the league of non-aligned worlds from B5 both before and after the formation of the ISA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's all about fear - I for one don't want my country attacked all because we associate with the US. Personally I'd like to pull Tony Blair's head out of Dubya's butthole. That man deserves such a good kicking...

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"Wild Dog! Why's it taking you so long to get ridda them?"
--
yan@ranger.b5lr.com

[This message has been edited by Nukemall (edited February 20, 2002).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:

Of course. What's your point?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point is that if she can see the error of her ways, maybe others can, too?
We base our decisions on the information we have. When we see that information is wrong, we sometimes change the way we behave.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Those are often the same people.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OFTEN???? I think you seriously need to research some numbers.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
So does blowing the shit out of their training camps and weapon storage areas and stopping their income.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does it? Training camps can be erected at the other end of the world within 48h. Money can be rerouted and new sources opened.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
The Iranian government supports these terrorists. There is not "oh, maybe they're right" here. It must be stopped. Now. If they do so of their own volition or due to some reasonable negotiation, great. If not...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong. The Iranian government is open to democratic reform. The religious leadership is not.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily yoru friend. Anyone who harbors terrorists is equally guilty, even they are at conflict with other terrorists.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, ok. So if someone keeps you hostage, it is already to blow up the whole building, since you harbored the terrorist?

What's next? Will you advocate reducing Bilbao to rubble, because there are ETA terrorists "being harbored" there?


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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
This is crap. The US does all it can to limit civilian casualties when bombing but no one can completely eliminate them. If you decide not to attack when civilian casualties are possible your enemies will simply increase the use of human shields. As others have said you might want to look at Sadam for answers on why his people are starving and where the money has gone.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not that easy, sorry. Flawed intelligence was more than once responsible for civilians being unnecessarily killed. Do I need to say "Chinese Embassy"? The same inaccurate maps (less current than what you could buy at a gas station) were one factor in the death of a dozen tourists in Italy when a US plane cut the cable of their cable car.
Likewise, one factor that got Somalis riled up against US- and UN-forces in their country were the Blackhawks of Task Force Ranger flying so low over their houses that it not only pulled the roofs off them, but even children out of their parents' arms.
It usually helps not entirely believing legends about oneself in assessing what one is doing, but rather realistically assessing what one knows. Self-glorification isn't going to give you a good reputation.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
Dear Lord,

I thought this was a Babylon 5 discussion board not a politics discussion. I come here to discuss B5 not Bush or his speeches.

Personally, I would like to see an admin close this thread.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sir Robin:
Dear Lord,

I thought this was a Babylon 5 discussion board not a politics discussion. I come here to discuss B5 not Bush or his speeches.

Personally, I would like to see an admin close this thread.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, all that is needed is an admin moving it to the off-topic forum.

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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
I don't think the thread warrants closing - it's an intelligent discussion on a topic that concerns us all.

However, I do think it has little to do with Babylon 5 at this point, so I'll close it in this forum and move it to Off-Topic.
smile.gif


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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com | Kribu.net
 

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