New FX/Old Show

[Republibot 3.0]

Over on another site (not mine) there was a discussion about re-rendering B5's graphics so they'd look better on high-def, much like they did with Trek TOS not too long ago (Though hopefully better). Ultimately the guy realized that was going to be a huge lot of work, and that was the end of the discussion.

It got me wondering, though: If you're going to go to all the work to re-render stuff (Which no one is), then why not go a little further and re-design some of the aspects of the show that make no sense. Since it's CGI, there's no real limit to how far you could go with it. Fix the rotating stars outside the windows, remove the goofy external bridge from the Hyperion-class ships, or completely redesign the station to look like something that makes more sense.

The last appealed to me, just for the heck of it. I think I'd redesign the station to look like an O'Neill sunflower design http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spacecolony1.jpg and http://mentatjack.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/spacecolony3edit.jpeg which is obviously what they were going for, anyway. A lot of this is probably arising from my re-watching season 1 at the moment, and it's just so darn gloomy.

Anyway...

What, if anything, would you redesign from the show?

 

[Triple F]

This is an argument (or point of view) that I’ve seen discussed in a number of places and approached in a number of ways.

Personally I believe it’s a terrible idea.

Babylon 5 was a product of it’s time. Like it or not, one of the main reasons why the show was a success was the use of CGI – and it would never have been made without it.

I know that some B5 fans have this self inflicted view that to appreciate the show you have to be intelligent (jms has pushed that a fair bit in his time as well). I view that complete tosh as quite a distasteful aspect of certain sections of the B5 fandom.

One of the ways that elitist nonsense manifests itself is by people saying things like “I suppose you can watch the show just for the space battles”. A fair point in it’s own, but in the context of “it’s the story that’s important” that attitude is overlooking one, not so small, point.

In television (or movies) those space battles and other fx are a large part of the narrative within that story. Removing the contributions of those that created that narrative (and much of it was their original ideas) and relegating them to a small by-line in the credits is the same as saying lets get some modern writer to take some of Joe Straczynski’s more dodgy dialogue and replace it with something more modern. It should be possible to dub it in with the use of modern technology.

Besides, if you did replace the CGI then the sets would look dated, replace the sets and the prosthetics would look dated, replace the prosthetics and the wardrobe would look dated, replace the wardrobe and the acting would look dated.

It’s a bad idea.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

This is an argument (or point of view) that I’ve seen discussed in a number of places and approached in a number of ways.

Personally I believe it’s a terrible idea.

Babylon 5 was a product of it’s time. Like it or not, one of the main reasons why the show was a success was the use of CGI – and it would never have been made without it.

I know that some B5 fans have this self inflicted view that to appreciate the show you have to be intelligent (jms has pushed that a fair bit in his time as well). I view that complete tosh as quite a distasteful aspect of certain sections of the B5 fandom.

One of the ways that elitist nonsense manifests itself is by people saying things like “I suppose you can watch the show just for the space battles”. A fair point in it’s own, but in the context of “it’s the story that’s important” that attitude is overlooking one, not so small, point.

In television (or movies) those space battles and other fx are a large part of the narrative within that story. Removing the contributions of those that created that narrative (and much of it was their original ideas) and relegating them to a small by-line in the credits is the same as saying lets get some modern writer to take some of Joe Straczynski’s more dodgy dialogue and replace it with something more modern. It should be possible to dub it in with the use of modern technology.

Besides, if you did replace the CGI then the sets would look dated, replace the sets and the prosthetics would look dated, replace the prosthetics and the wardrobe would look dated, replace the wardrobe and the acting would look dated.

It’s a bad idea.

In fact, I agree with you on every level. Good Space FX/Cheap Sets is one of the thing that really pops out at you in "The Lost Tales."

In the case of TOS, I felt it was utterly pointless to redo the effects because they were the best that could be done at the time, and they had a certain charm. Clean 'em up a bit? Sure. Re-interpret stuff? No, that seems obtrusive. "But it's what the producer had in mind at the time." So what - art is all about limitations. It is undoubtedly cheating to 'fix' stuff you blew the first time around. Don't even get me started on those terrible Star Wars re-edits. Gah!

In the case of B5, the problem is a little different: The show was shot in widescreen, the CGI wasn't, so on the DVDs and such, they blow it up to widescreen, which makes it fuzzy and sloppy as heck. There's no easy fix here, and anything you do won't make it look right, sort of re-rendering some or all of it.

My point, I guess, was "If you're going to go to all the trouble of doing that..." and then I got to wondering what stuff I'd fix. In my case, cool as it is, the station's design is rather halfassed, and occasionally nags at me. I'd like to fix all those dreadful shots of Minbar from "Legend of the Rangers," there's not much else, though. I always felt the visual design aspect of the show was stunning and groundbreaking.

There must've been something about the FX that nagged at you, though...

 

[JoeD80]

In the case of B5, the problem is a little different: The show was shot in widescreen, the CGI wasn't, so on the DVDs and such, they blow it up to widescreen, which makes it fuzzy and sloppy as heck. There's no easy fix here, and anything you do won't make it look right, sort of re-rendering some or all of it.

They were always expecting to have to do this. If you take a look at the Making of B5 bit on the season 1 DVDs (the old special hosted by Walter Koenig) you can see in the background of one of the interviews how when the CGI was being worked out the computer would block out the top and bottom of the EFX so they would know what it was going to look like in widescreen. It's my understanding that the blurriness issue came because they ended up transferring the widescreen back from the PAL tapes to NTSC when Sci-Fi channel first aired the reruns.

 

[vacantlook]

It's my understanding that the blurriness issue came because they ended up transferring the widescreen back from the PAL tapes to NTSC when Sci-Fi channel first aired the reruns.

Yup, that's the way I understand it. The idea was to recomposite the CGI and filmed elements, but they ran into a problem when they went to do it. Warner Bros. lost all of the CGI files.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I think the ST:TOS updating was tastefully done. Things looked better, but still looked like they were made in the 60s, just better. I think it would be theoretically possible to do that with B5, but given how much more CGI/FX there was, cost would be prohibitive. Also, there is that annoying tendency of people to want to 'fix' things, change their nature, their look, update them, etc. That would ruin it. If it were possible to wave a magic mouse over the B5 CGI, and make it HD, and in the proper aspect ratio, I'd be all for it. But, it's not possible, and it won't happen. At least not any time soon.

 

[Triple F]

It's my understanding that the blurriness issue came because they ended up transferring the widescreen back from the PAL tapes to NTSC when Sci-Fi channel first aired the reruns.

Yup, that's the way I understand it. The idea was to recomposite the CGI and filmed elements, but they ran into a problem when they went to do it. Warner Bros. lost all of the CGI files.

No it wasn’t. ; )

There was never a plan to recomposit or re-render any CGI or composite shots on B5. No one who has ever worked on the show has ever said there was. It’s one of those fan created myths – all-be-it a widely repeated one.

Here's a bit of what John Copeland said when asked directly about the whole mess surounding the DVD releases.

I was able to convince Warners to let us shot 1:85. The idea being that we would telecine to 4:3 for the original broadcast of the series. But what it also gave us was a negative that had been shot for the new 16x9 wide screen format televisions that we knew were on the horizon. The show was actually broadcast initially in some international markets in 16x9 - but for some reason the UK didn't take it that way - Portugal did though - go figure.

With regard to the VFX. We just couldn't double render stuff in two aspect ratios, no time. But at the end of every season we delivered all the VFX shots for each episode on a exabyte tape (the precursor to DLT) which WB were supposed to run through a "black box" - actually an early TerranX - to upres them and then cut them into the retransferred shows in 16x9 for home video release. For whatever reason, they didn't do it. I think Warren Leiberfarb, then head of Warners Home Video wouldn't authorize the expense for this. . . . . . . . . .

They did another video hack and simply used a digital post production device like a DVE (Digital Video Enhancer) to blow the material up. They essentially stretched it approximately 1/3 to fill the larger aspect ratio. . . . . . . . .

We never had a plan to re-render the VFX footage - rendering takes time, resources and consequently $$ - it's always a question of who is paying for it. You know the old adage - there is no free lunch. Well, there is no free rendering, either. In fact the filmed 16x9 versions - Warners had even forgotten that they had those. They used PAL versions and converted them to NTSC for the US market. They actually didn't go back and retransfer the shows.

The plan was always to just crop the top and bottom off the 4:3 CGI and composit shots to make them appear 16:9 widescreen – the problem was that Warner decided to do it on the cheap (not what was originally agreed).

The loss of the CGI files had absolutely nothing to do with the crap quality of what appeared on the DVD’s. Warner using the PAL versions to convert over to NTSC for the US market only refers to the FILMED footage (with the actors and stuff ; ).

 

[vacantlook]

There is a difference between rerendering and recompositing. Of course they wouldn't do the former.

You contradict yourself.

There was never a plan to recomposit or re-render any CGI or composite shots on B5.

The plan was always to just crop the top and bottom off the 4:3 CGI and composit shots to make them appear 16:9 widescreen

Also...

Warner using the PAL versions to convert over to NTSC for the US market only refers to the FILMED footage (with the actors and stuff

There is a very discernable difference between the shots presented in their full clarity widescreen nature and the blurry, non-widescreen, cropped shots that either include both live and CGI elements or are live elements that cut to all CGI elements. Everything I've ever read has said that if they could have recomposited, that the shots that combined live and CGI would have been the same clarity and actor-within-the-frame ratio (for lack of a better way to describe it) that the live-only shots on the DVDs have.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

It's my understanding that the blurriness issue came because they ended up transferring the widescreen back from the PAL tapes to NTSC when Sci-Fi channel first aired the reruns.

Yup, that's the way I understand it. The idea was to recomposite the CGI and filmed elements, but they ran into a problem when they went to do it. Warner Bros. lost all of the CGI files.

I remember reading about them planning to go to widescreen away back in season 1, and blocking out the shots accordingly, but most of the people I've talked to have told me they never bothered to render the 'sides' of the CGI sequences because of the additional time constraints. This is not true?

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I think the ST:TOS updating was tastefully done. Things looked better, but still looked like they were made in the 60s, just better. I think it would be theoretically possible to do that with B5, but given how much more CGI/FX there was, cost would be prohibitive. Also, there is that annoying tendency of people to want to 'fix' things, change their nature, their look, update them, etc. That would ruin it. If it were possible to wave a magic mouse over the B5 CGI, and make it HD, and in the proper aspect ratio, I'd be all for it. But, it's not possible, and it won't happen. At least not any time soon.

Kinda' what I said from the outset, though of course I wasn't really talking about the feasibility (Since it's nonexistent), but what you'd change if you felt like changing stuff.

 

[Triple F]

There is a difference between rerendering and recompositing. Of course they wouldn't do the former.

You contradict yourself.

There was never a plan to recomposit or re-render any CGI or composite shots on B5.

The plan was always to just crop the top and bottom off the 4:3 CGI and composit shots to make them appear 16:9 widescreen

Also...

Warner using the PAL versions to convert over to NTSC for the US market only refers to the FILMED footage (with the actors and stuff

There is a very discernable difference between the shots presented in their full clarity widescreen nature and the blurry, non-widescreen, cropped shots that either include both live and CGI elements or are live elements that cut to all CGI elements. Everything I've ever read has said that if they could have recomposited, that the shots that combined live and CGI would have been the same clarity and actor-within-the-frame ratio (for lack of a better way to describe it) that the live-only shots on the DVDs have.

Are you suggesting that recompositing (recombining basically) the crystal clear 16:9 plates with the cropped (and zoomed in) 4:3 CGI elements (now pretending to be 16:9 themselves and pretty f*cked up) was the original idea. You don’t see just a tiny bit of a problem with this. ; )

The only plan that existed was carried out (Warner just screwed the pooch by doing it on the cheap, and my part of this discussion concerns what was and wasn't planned). There's no argument that possible alternative plans/approaches could have been carried out. They just didn't exist as far as B5 is concerned at the time. The loss of the CGI files makes sure that they can never exist.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

There is a difference between rerendering and recompositing. Of course they wouldn't do the former.

You contradict yourself.

There was never a plan to recomposit or re-render any CGI or composite shots on B5.

Also...

Warner using the PAL versions to convert over to NTSC for the US market only refers to the FILMED footage (with the actors and stuff

There is a very discernable difference between the shots presented in their full clarity widescreen nature and the blurry, non-widescreen, cropped shots that either include both live and CGI elements or are live elements that cut to all CGI elements. Everything I've ever read has said that if they could have recomposited, that the shots that combined live and CGI would have been the same clarity and actor-within-the-frame ratio (for lack of a better way to describe it) that the live-only shots on the DVDs have.

Are you suggesting that recompositing (recombining basically) the crystal clear 16:9 film with the cropped (and zoomed in) 4:3 CGI elements (now pretending to be 16:9 themselves and pretty f*cked up) was the original idea. You don’t see just a tiny bit of a problem with this. ; )

I'm siding with Triple F on this one...

 

[JoeD80]

There was never a plan to recomposit or re-render any CGI or composite shots on B5. No one who has ever worked on the show has ever said there was. It’s one of those fan created myths – all-be-it a widely repeated one.

Not that he was saying it was the definite plan, but it was something George Johnsen had mentioned a couple of times:

We record all of our CG elements to hard drive and optical disc. The images are created "resolution independent" meaning they could be rendered for anything from video game to Imax, based on user input. For the NTSC version, we output to digital tape, eventually.

We do a conformed film neg of every episode for archival that is just for [HDTV]. CG and composites can be rerendered to whatever new rez that is required, and we welcome the opportunity.

As to the issue of archival, there is no complete film print, but all of the live action sequences are conformed on negative, plus the animation files are stored so that they can be recreated and rerendered at whatever resolution is needed

And then when the Sci-Fi channel reruns came around Joe said:

Nor can this footage be re-rendered because the separate elements do not exist anymore, only the original un-comped film elements are there. The CGI files are not around anymore, and to recreate every shot would be prohibitively expensive. In a big way.

 

[Triple F]

JoeD80, we’ve had this discussion before. It’s cool that your not now saying that there was a plan (and including that dodgy quoting), definite or otherwise. If I’m reading everything right we’re basically all in agreement, kinda.

Things could have been done certain ways. The option to do them was definitely there (until the f’in files were lost – though when exactly were they lost).

Where (some of us) disagree is about there being a plan to do any of that. And there’s one very simple way to prove there wasn’t any (without having to quote Ron, John or George), or at least question it.

Clear your mind take a deep breath and riddle me this.

The original transmission of the show was in 4:3. The CGI was created in 4:3. So why was it designed to be cropped if a completely separate plan to rerender (or recomposit) the bloody thing at some point in the future existed!?

Just to clarify something. The only reason why I put up an argument when this idea of a plan is mentioned is because it’s a very widely repeated myth. And way back in the day as a newbie reading up on the subject of B5, I was getting increasingly confused and pissed off with fans looking for tech heavy replies interpreting tech light replies from jms (or George Johnsen, or anyone else) and presenting their version of events as facts – when clearly they are not. It’s the tip of a rather large iceberg.

 

[JoeD80]

I wasn't making any other conclusions except to point out that people on the show did make statements about the subject of redoing the comp shots and re-rendering CGI, whether they were actually going to do it or not. I don't think I cut out any context of the quotes [except for the part about George going to an HDTV conference].

My point earlier in the thread was that the cropping of the CGI and upresing *was* the plan, which John Copeland refers to in your quote:

But at the end of every season we delivered all the VFX shots for each episode on a exabyte tape (the precursor to DLT) which WB were supposed to run through a "black box" - actually an early TerranX - to upres them and then cut them into the retransferred shows in 16x9 for home video release. For whatever reason, they didn't do it.

I think confusion arises between upresing and re-rendering.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I think the ST:TOS updating was tastefully done. Things looked better, but still looked like they were made in the 60s, just better. I think it would be theoretically possible to do that with B5, but given how much more CGI/FX there was, cost would be prohibitive. Also, there is that annoying tendency of people to want to 'fix' things, change their nature, their look, update them, etc. That would ruin it. If it were possible to wave a magic mouse over the B5 CGI, and make it HD, and in the proper aspect ratio, I'd be all for it. But, it's not possible, and it won't happen. At least not any time soon.

Kinda' what I said from the outset, though of course I wasn't really talking about the feasibility (Since it's nonexistent), but what you'd change if you felt like changing stuff.

A direct answer to that question is, I would change nothing but the resolution, and the aspect ratio to 16x9.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I wasn't making any other conclusions except to point out that people on the show did make statements about the subject of redoing the comp shots and re-rendering CGI, whether they were actually going to do it or not. I don't think I cut out any context of the quotes [except for the part about George going to an HDTV conference].

My point earlier in the thread was that the cropping of the CGI and upresing *was* the plan, which John Copeland refers to in your quote:

But at the end of every season we delivered all the VFX shots for each episode on a exabyte tape (the precursor to DLT) which WB were supposed to run through a "black box" - actually an early TerranX - to upres them and then cut them into the retransferred shows in 16x9 for home video release. For whatever reason, they didn't do it.

I think confusion arises between upresing and re-rendering.

Agreed. I think it is clear that the plan from the start was to compose the CGI shots so that they could be cropped to 16x9, and uprezed to HD, but WB dropped the ball, in at least two ways. This is clear in what everyone has posted.

 

[Triple F]

A direct answer to that question is, I would change nothing but the resolution, and the aspect ratio to 16x9.

In all honesty that goes for me as well. Possibly airbrush the sex dance with the Lumati out (I know it’s not a vfx but I thing it’s removal is worth mentioning at every opportunity. ; )

Personally I didn’t see the point of re-doing the Trek: TOS either. Other than pander to the brain dead who have trouble with this whole concept of time and (VFX) evolution. Though it may have made paramount some cash and probably came in handy with the release of the reboot movie.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

One thing I'd really like to see is the Battle of Epsilon 3 redone to make use of all the super-cool abilities the Omegas were designed with, but which were forgotten about at that time. I really wouldn't need to see the whole episode, frankly, but I'd really really really like to see that. Also, I think I'd prefer it if the Heavy Cruisers didn't just abruptly disappear from the battle.

Wouldn't even need to re-orchestrate it much, to be honest, just substitute a couple shots.

 

[Triple F]

Oh you’re a bad bastard for bringing that up. :thumbsup:
(Remember Scottish, I swear a lot, It’s actually a sign of endearment, not that I'm proposing or anything ;-)

Well if your talking about unused abilities seeing the Starfury using it’s thrust vectoring baffles correctly would have been nice. Though a bit disorientating at first.

http://www.themadgoner.com/B5/B5ScrollsWhite.htm#Screen1_03_10
(bottom of screen)

edit
As for dissapearing ships, here's an explanation for that.
http://www.themadgoner.com/B5/B5ScrollsWhite.htm#Screen1_11_9