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Missing the missiles

D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
Is anyone else bothered by the lack of missiles. Other than the earth orbital defence platforms, and one episode where an atmopheric starfury fires one at a mars dome, (and the shadow cloud) we never see missiles. I could understand where the more advanced races could have energy weapons just as destructive as a missile`s warhead, but at least the humans should be using them more often. In the episode where an unmanded centari ship is sent to blow up the B5 jump gate it takes half a dozen starfuries firing for about a minute to stop it. If they would have had missiles thay could have done it with one fighter in a qaurter the time.

My other issue is that in B5 the most powerfull bomb you can use is still an H-bomb. It seems to me that in a few hundreed years there would be somthing more destructive invented: antimatter (yes there would be star trek copying complaints), sub-atomic bomb, quantum (insert your favorite reaction here) bomb, etc ...

In spite of these complaints I still would not tarde watching a B5 space battle scene for anything. Well, maybe if that Babylon 5 game had been finished I would trade watching one for playing in one.

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[This message has been edited by Xzyl (edited January 31, 2002).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Is anyone else bothered by the lack of missiles and bombs. Other than the earth orbital defence platforms, and one episode where an atmopheric starfury fires one at a mars dome, (and the shadow cloud) we never see missiles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do actually get missiles used in a few other episodes.

The Great Machine on Epsilon 3 fires missiles at he shuttles in "Voice in the Wilderness"

The Drazi ships fire them against the Centauri in season 5 when the war flares up (can't remember the episode title).

In "Thirdspace" Ivanova's 'furies are equipped with missiles when they face off against the Raiders, and later on we see them used against the Thirdspace aliens.

Also, in "A Call to Arms" the Warlock class destroyer lets rip with missiles as it closes in on the Drakh planet killer.

The main reason for the lack of use of missiles is probably supply issues. Missiles take up space whereas a laser shot merely takes power. Plasma and particle weapons mostly bleed some of the ship's feul supply to provide their ammo, something that would be renewed anyway. Missiles are mainly deadweight if you aren't going to fire them any time soon.

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Paddy Sinclair

"I think it's an excellent plan. But then, I've been shot through the head on five or six occasions"- Troop Leader Keitel, The Corps
 
When it comes to missiles and moving targets, speed is of essence. Both ships and missiles built on Earth tend to be rather slow. Minbari ships might easily travel faster than Earth missiles, and Centauri ships might be quite comparable in speed. Humans use missiles against large or unmoving targets, and when they run out of money.

It seems that in the Babylon 5 universe, missiles tend to be forgotten as gravity engines appear on ships. Of the highly advances races, only the Shadows still use missiles. From what these do to planets, we may suspect that they have more than simple nuclear warheads.

But they are not antimatter, for upon colliding with a Drazi and Minbari ship at the battle of Coriana 6, the Shadow missiles did not start an annihilation reaction. Antimatter bombs are not easy to keep. Should anything happen to them, you go "boom". Therefore you keep them off planets and apart from each other (hence not usable for a planetkiller).

As for your general guesses about the variety of destructive means available to old races... I would suspect the same. They might even know how to artificially create a nice and small black hole (under natural conditions great mass is needed to form one).

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 30, 2002).]
 
Missiles can also be defined as stones, artillary shells, etc. capable of being thrown or projected at a distance. The Centauri used mass drivers to hurl large stones against the Narn Home world from orbit.
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Remember dear readers, you heard it here first. Off the record, on the Q.T., and very hush-hush - Danny DeVito as Sid Hudgens in L.A. Confidential
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Is anyone else bothered by the lack of missiles and bombs<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope... just because we never see them doesn't mean they aren't there.
smile.gif


Clark bombed Mars. This could have included missiles as well (and usually does, in today's military procedures).

The Centauri used mass drivers (essentially gigantic bombs) to decimate the surface of Narn.

The Shadow planet killer employed thousands (if not millions) of missiles when it would destroy worlds.

As far as ship-to-ship or station-to-ship space battles go, missiles are too slow. They can be targeted & destroyed easily by any self-respecting warship. Energy/beam weapons are the way to go.
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As far as anitmatter goes, I'm sure JMS left it out because of the Star Trek angle. Plus the fact that B5 seems to employ feasible technology. Creating antimatter is HUGELY expensive... the current "rate" is $80 million per gram. Any space ship would need pounds of the stuff to operate... even today's Space Shuttle Orbiters.

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-Londo's Hair
"Vir, intelligence has nothing to do with politics!"
 
Well, antimatter is simply a very potent way to store energy. How you produce it... depends on your resources and knowledge.

With today's means, it would have to be built up milligram at a time, held in vacuum suspended by magnetic fields. Quite expensive. Not even close to being viable for a weapon.

How the Shadows would get it is another matter. Perhaps they would know other ways. For all we know, they might consider creating, collecting or storing it as easy as storing water in a bucket.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
 
Bombs... lack of???????????????????

Are we forgetting Sheridan or something (Captain Tactical Nuke)?!?!?!?!

Insert bombs into asteroids whilst Black Star and her escorts approach... boom!

Insert Bombs into the back of your own spaceship and send it hurtling into the planet you are currently residing on... albeit briefly... BoOm!

Insert bombs into asteroids around Coriana systemwhilst Shadows and Vorlons approach... BOOM!!!

Insert tactical nukes into Thirdspace artifact and get the heck out of there.... BOOOOOOOMMMM!!!!!

King of bombing he was.

I think it's been said somewhere that Warlocks use missiles because they are equipped for planetary blockades and invasion. This worries me, that Earth is designing ships primarily for offensive/first strike capability, rather than to defend itself from attack.

Maybe I read it wrong

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"
 
I always wondered about using Quantium 40 as a weapon...using q40 instead of Plutonium or Hydrogen in a bomb should be pretty spectacular...
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chechnya-operation.jpg


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So come on rally round this brave and valiant cause with tradition, pride, and honor at its core. With swords drawn to defend stood these noble-hearted men. Faugh-an-ballagh, clear the way, me boys!!
-Dropkick Murphys: Heroes From Our Past
 
A reminder that even the simplest weapons are
capable of causing more loss than ever needed.
frown.gif

Our species is just as destructive without advanced weapons.
Which was this case, a rocket or an AT mine?

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited January 30, 2002).]
 
Also, in the year 2762 - as repeated on Tuesday in "Deconstruction of Falling Stars" - it's implied Humans still used missle technology. Maybe it was a metaphor, but the Garabaldi hologram told Daniels "I bet their missles are half-way here by now." A few seconds later resulted in at least the first salvo of the war which burned the Earth (and maybe some colony worlds). I'm guessing it was a nuclear holocaust and nuclear weapons - which do not transport as energy weapons very well, heh. So when you want to do massive amounts of damage but not actually get close yourself, nuclear missles are still a viable option ... *sigh*

Oh, and this is my first post to this board! I only discovered it a few days ago. Hi everyone!
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Loadhan (aka Jess)

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I think warefare has reached the point where speed is paramount, a pulse cannon will be faster than a missile, at least I think so
crazy.gif

Anyway the point is that a missile is easily stopped and would probably be used as weapon of mass destruction ie nuclear warhead, maybe even a form of cold fusion or is it fission?
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The point, well would have to be that missiles are impractical when stacked up against all the other weaponry available. It would, by this time, be a specialised piece of equipment!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
 
The problem with Missles is the Price Tag.

Current missles are running in the $Million dollar EACH range.
Sometimes the target just isn't Worth that much when there are cheaper alternatives.

For instance: The mass drivers the Centauri used against Narn.
Dirt cheap. Just visit the nearest asteroid belt and pick up a bunch of Rocks.
Just as much damage as a Nuke for pennies.

Then, there is the reliability problem.
Missles, no matter how fast, can still be intercepted by a good point defense system.

That's what 75% of the weapons fire we see in all the Babylon 5 battles was.
Not fire intended to Destroy the Enemy.
Fire that was intercepting Incoming threats.

That's why it was referred to as the DEFENSE GRID.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
The problem with Missles is the Price Tag.

Current missles are running in the $Million dollar EACH range.
Sometimes the target just isn't Worth that much when there are cheaper alternatives.

For instance: The mass drivers the Centauri used against Narn.
Dirt cheap. Just visit the nearest asteroid belt and pick up a bunch of Rocks.
Just as much damage as a Nuke for pennies.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That supposes there is no acceleration other than gravity. If there is, you will need quite a bit of energy.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Then, there is the reliability problem. Missles, no matter how fast, can still be intercepted by a good point defense system.

That's what 75% of the weapons fire we see in all the Babylon 5 battles was.
Not fire intended to Destroy the Enemy.
Fire that was intercepting Incoming threats.

That's why it was referred to as the DEFENSE GRID.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Other weapons have other disadvantages. Missiles, for example, only need to be heat-shielded for orbital bombardment. Particle accelerators, on the other hand, would likely be scattered beyond hope by any reasonably strong planetary magnetic field before they can do any damage. The only alternative would be beam weapons, and we're talking serious amounts of energy here. Though I usually say that someone who has enough energy to punch a hole into the universe shouldn't lack the energy to punch a hole into another ship....which is why in the case of LotR, I have some concerns about JMS's reasoning that the Liandra doesn't have enough energy to sustain a beam weapon....

Another example of missiles is that they can shoot around corners and in arcs. That might seem silly in space, but planetside, it can make the difference between being able to hit someone and not being able to hit someone.


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If I tell you my name is Lorien, what good is that?

(Whatever happened to Mr. Garibaldi?)
 
i'd say many ships didnt carry missiles because of other ships defense systems. as for bombs they used plenty of those, like when they used the nukes to get the attention of the shadows and vorlons (someone might have already said that, didnt have time to read all the posts
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)

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Just visit the nearest asteroid belt and pick up a bunch of Rocks.
Just as much damage as a Nuke for pennies.


That supposes there is no acceleration other than gravity. If there is, you will need quite a bit of energy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. A 1 ton rock falling from orbit hits with as much impact as a small Nuke whether you slam it out of orbit with a Mass Driver or just nudge it gently.

The extra enegy added by the Mass Driver is negligible in comparison to the kinetic energy the rock gets falling from 50 - 100 miles up.

The reason they used the Mass Drivers is not to increase the Impact, but to Aim the rocks.

It takes more energy to grab the rock and bring it aboard the Centauri ship than it does to throw it at a planet.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
Ok I made an error in my post when I wrote there were no bombs. I ment to write that there were no advanced bombs.

frobisher pointed out several scenes where they were used but that I had forgotten about:

We do actually get missiles used in a few other episodes.

The Great Machine on Epsilon 3 fires missiles at he shuttles in "Voice in the Wilderness"

The Drazi ships fire them against the Centauri in season 5 when the war flares up (can't remember the episode title).

In "Thirdspace" Ivanova's 'furies are equipped with missiles when they face off against the Raiders, and later on we see them used against the Thirdspace aliens.

Also, in "A Call to Arms" the Warlock class destroyer lets rip with missiles as it closes in on the Drakh planet killer.
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Lennier`s comment about the missiles being to slow seemed a bit off. I could see where mimbari fighters could out maneuver missiles but those huge slow crusiers would be fairly easy to hit.
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The easy to shootdown argument is true, but only to a point. Picture the scene from A Call to Arms, durring Londo`s speach about human valor you see a squdron of Starfuries flying towards a group of mimbari cruiseres. I dont remember the number of fighters, so I will go with the offical count of 28 fighters in an EF squadron I keep reading about. Now imagine if each Starfury had 12 missiles. Now imagine they all fired 2 of their missiles at the same crusier at the same time. While were at it lets imagine that each fighter was comming in from a different direction when they decided to fire. Think the mimbari cruiser would still be able to destroy all 56 missiles in time?
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Remember each missile would only be about as wide as coffee can. I think it would be dead or close to it. Repeat the process a few more times untill you run out of targets or missiles. That would probably also be the last occasion where mimbari crusiers would go against Furies without launching their own fighters.
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The million $ a shot number applies to cruise missiles, not somthing a fighter can carry. Although I think laser guided bombs can aproach that price. I would also like to think that buy the time of the human mimbari war that the price of missiles would have gone down due to more automated production. Even if they didnt do you really think earth gov in fear of its own survival would worry about the cost.

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[This message has been edited by Xzyl (edited January 31, 2002).]
 
Also depends on whatever stealth and maneuvering tech you have on your missiles. An energy beam or particle shot don't seem very easy to mask and hide. And neither can manuever - under normal laws of physics without intense gravity or electro-magnetic fields - unlike a missile. If you can fire a lot of projectiles at once and the enemy cannot see them well enough and shoot them down fast enough before they move, they could do alot of damage. Plus while you're busy staying out of range of some of their guns, your dozens of missiles could be getting in close to track targets like their weapon ports or engine assemblies. Even if most are shot down, a few good hits right there will do alot of damage.

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What would a Minbari cruiser do against a squadron of Starfuries equipped with missiles?

Nothing.

Nothing at all. It would sit there, switch on its defense grid and destroy the Starfuries. Unable to track the Minbari cruiser, the missiles would miss. Space is big. If you are unable to track something, you will miss.

Now let us assume that of the 100 missiles fired, 10 would accidentally home in on the cruiser. Naturally, its fighter wing would destroy them. Unlike piloted fighters, missiles fly in a straight line. They don't have the fuel or intellect to manouver. For a Minbari fighter, intercepting an Earth missile would be crushing a snail which tried to crawl past you.

Should the fighters fail, there will be other means. The warcruiser would focus its ECM on the missiles and accelerate. Given that it has excellent gravity engines, missiles with ion or rocket engines would quickly be left behind.

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Example:

An Earth Force battle group is defending a space station. A Minbari warcruiser jumps *into* the station at full speed, tearing it apart with a jump point. Earth ships fire their missiles. Unfortunately, as the Minbari cruiser was moving at full speed, the missiles fail to catch up. It destroys two more ships with beam weapons and jumps out.

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Advantages of beam weapons:

1. Weapon travels at light speed or near-light speed. Enemy speed it irrelevant. Evading a beam weapon is much more difficult than evading a missile.

2. Great range, no need for fuel, no need for continuous guidance. Once the shot has been fired, it is invulnerable to ECM. It will hit or miss, but it can't be jammed.

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It seems that Earth builds the lousiest missiles in the B5 universe. During the final battle of the Earth Civil War, the Earth defese grid fired countless missiles. Fighters dealt with them rather easily, and ships used their interceptor systems with great efficiency.

The Drazi, Centauri and Shadows seem to know how to build proper and efficient missiles, but Humans seem to have failed in that area. Their missiles are limited to either mass destruction or unmoving targets.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 01, 2002).]
 
I think the question about missiles, especially advanced ones is quite good. And there have been some excellent replies on the subject as well.

To rehash some points:

1) Lower tech races still tend to use missiles in some capacity for ship to ship combat. The Drazi, Centauri (don't forget the mine looking missiles their ships under Drakh control fired at the drazi in S5), Narn (energy mines, which seem to be a large missile of some kind) and Earth all fall into this category. The only races that don't seem to use them for ship to ship combat are the Minbari, Vorlon and Shadows. Their beam weapons are far more destructive than anyone elses and they have the power sources to back them up. So it makes sense they prefer to use those on ships.

2) Speed/guidance: Missiles are slower than energy weapons of any kind and they require a lock on and guidance to their target. One of the biggest problems with Minbari ships that Earth had was how good Minbari EW was. They simply couldn't get a target for any weapons. You can't hit what you can't shoot. Plus Minbari defensive tech is much better than Earth's so its to be expected their point defense is better too (better sensors, computers, targeting arrays and so forth).

3)Warhead - Ships could probably carry missiles large enough to do serious damage and a fusion bomb is nothing to sneeze at. Fighter missiles probably are not as destructive and probably used against ground targets, other fighters and less well defended targets than warships.

So do missiles have their place? Obviously they do because so many races still use them. Are they a superior weapon? Not really.

Now for some practical comments. Energy displays are easier to render than missiles and look neater on the screen.
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Also serious missile engagements would require a lot of missiles, long flight times and so forth and I have a feeling that would look rather dull on TV.

Energy weapons are actually slowed down. Energy travels at or close to the speed of light so really by the time you "see" a beam its already hit you or about to hit you. A "defense grid" is really useless against energy weapons because even the fastest computers can't target an energy packet moving at light speed. I'm not even sure one energy beam hitting another would stop it. Based on that I'm guessing what the defense grids are intercepting are some sort of missile rather than true energy beams. I'm pretty sure we see the Defense grid actually intercepting incoming fire only against Centauri and other lower tech aliens and fighter craft. You don't see them intercepting against slicer beams or anything else.

Now it is possible that the bolts from a pulse cannon and similar weapons travel at less than light speed, which would make interception possible but incredibly difficult. Assuming that your EW is good enough to burn through your enemy's you might be able to calculate trajectory and firing paths based on the way their weapons are pointing and then fill space with a volume of fire and pray for a hit. In this case a defense grid may work against some types of energy weapons.

As for photon torpedoes and the like, I'm not sure how feasible they really are technology wise. The Star Trek encyclopedia mentions that photon torpedoes travel at warp speed which I can't buy. They travel way too slowly for that. They also underestimate the destructive power of anti-matter. Judging from how many hits various ships can take from these things, their warheads would have to yield very little. A fusion bomb that hit the Enterprise would blow it to pieces, but a photon torpedo just puts a hole in the hull.
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One thing I like about B5 is that for Earth and other races at about the same tech level and development their technology is still reasonable. No super fancy shields or anything like that. Its only when you reach the Minbari, Drakh and other races that have had space flight for a couple thousand of years do you start moving into more unknown territory.

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Lyta lives!
 
How fast do beam weapons reach you?

1. Weapons which use particles with no standing mass travel at the speed of light. The first shot of a laser can't be intercepted, it hits before your sensors can detect it. Heavier particles (it has been mentioned that Minnbari weapons are based on accelerating neutrons) travel at near-light-speed.

This serves two purposes: due to time dilation, the "aging" of particles slows and their lifetime grows. This allows to use particles which would, under normal conditions, be incredibly short-lived. Secondly near-light speed makes them *very* difficult to counter.

Can you intercept them?

Yes. Interceptor for a laser: a cloud of crystal particles which refract or reflect it. Interceptor for antimatter: any kind of matter. Interceptor for plasma: anything which absorbs its energy and makes the projectile disintegrate.

While intercepting a first hit from a beam weapons is very difficult, dampening continuous fire is quite possible. The only problem: when a Shadow vessel has delivered its first shot, there is nothing left to protect. Even if something would be left, it wouldn't survive the intesity of Shadow weapons for long.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 01, 2002).]
 

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