Minbari reaction to Sinclair becoming Valen

[Telepath]

Ok, I have a question. While reading script book seven, I found that Neroon spoke of Sinclair having diluted the rangers' purity because he was a human and allowed humans to join. That was AFTER Sinclair took B4 back in time and became Valen. So... did Delenn and the others tell nobody where Sinclair went, and what became of him? If so, why? It may have prevented the Minbari civil war (or at least prove Delenn right in her unpopular choosings up to that day).

Well, you COULD say that if the Minbari found out that Valen had been originally human, his legend might diminish, but I think that's a bit of a stretch... and, even more interesting, WHAT did Delenn tell the Minbari where Sinclair had gone?

(Okay, perhaps I'm forgetting something.... I don't know. It's just kinda strange)

 

[Jan]

I'm about 90% certain that the Minbari didn't tell most of their people about Sinclair/Valen. Remember how, in 'Atonement', Delenn's clan leader would have done anything to keep her from defending her desire to marry Sheridan with the fact that the Minbari race was no longer 'pure Minbari' since she was a Child of Valen and therefore that genetic purity had long been diluted?

As for what she told them about where Sinclair went, that was never said. Really, though, the only ones who'd be due an explaination would be the Rangers. The rest of the people were only told 'as much as they needed to know.'

Jan

 

[vacantlook]

Give the fourth season episode "Atonement" a refresher. In going through The Dreaming, Delenn realizes that Dukhat had told her right before he died that she was a "child of Valen", a fact that she uses to counter the Minbari who's accusing her of impurity for wanting to be with Sheridan. She confronts that Minbari about it and says that if Valen, being formerly human, had children, then that means that the Minbari haven't been "pure" for a thousand years. That Minbari she's confronting finally conceeds that they know that, and have known that since learning that Sinclair became Valen, but that it must be kept secret from most Minbari or it has the possibility to seriously fracture their society.

 

[vacantlook]

And yet again, Jan and I have a collision of posts with nearly identical points.

 

[Jan]

Great Minds Think Alike, VL!

Jan

 

[Galahad]

I wonder what point in the B5 Universe, that knowledge entered the Minbari and human public domain?

 

[Telepath]

I'm about 90% certain that the Minbari didn't tell most of their people about Sinclair/Valen. Remember how, in 'Atonement', Delenn's clan leader would have done anything to keep her from defending her desire to marry Sheridan with the fact that the Minbari race was no longer 'pure Minbari' since she was a Child of Valen and therefore that genetic purity had long been diluted?

As for what she told them about where Sinclair went, that was never said. Really, though, the only ones who'd be due an explaination would be the Rangers. The rest of the people were only told 'as much as they needed to know.'

True, I remember. On a sidenote: The belief of the One who is three appears even more out of place when viewed in this context. When all Minbari belief is around the number three, and Sinclair is known as the One who Was (i.e. grounded in Minbari belief), that contradicts the secrecy about Valen's descendancy. Plus, JMS once said that Dukhat was the one, as opposed to the nine who made up the grey council - so there are at least four "Ones" in Minbari society:

How could Dukhat override the Grey Council, if he was simply a member?
There's the One, and the Nine...when Dukhat was alive, there were 9 grey council members and him as the head of it, making ten. (Look at the picture and count the number of people.) 1 and 9.
Valen called together the Grey Council, formed the first one; until then the castes had been in constant competition. He wanted to operate outside of that a bit, so he made sure he was not one of the Nine. That tradition has continued.

(Lurker's guide, JMS speaks on "Atonement").

I find that to be one of the few cases in B5 when simpler would have been better - that the One is a spiritually eminent leader of the Minbari. It would have sufficed.

 

[Jan]

True, I remember. On a sidenote: The belief of the One who is three appears even more out of place when viewed in this context. When all Minbari belief is around the number three, and Sinclair is known as the One who Was (i.e. grounded in Minbari belief), that contradicts the secrecy about Valen's descendancy. Plus, JMS once said that Dukhat was the one, as opposed to the nine who made up the grey council - so there are at least four "Ones" in Minbari society:

I don't understand how Sinclair being 'known as the One who Was' contradicts any secrecy about Valen. After all, the only ones we know for sure who knew that wer...Zathras, who went back to the past with Sinclair and Delenn and Sheridan and it's doubtful they would talk.

Jan

 

[vacantlook]

There's the One, and the Nine...when Dukhat was alive, there were 9 grey council members and him as the head of it, making ten....

He's not saying that Duhkat is another The One, he's pointing to a division in the organzation of the Council. On one side is one, on the other is nine. Think of it like this: if there's a tie in the US Senate, the Vice President of the United States votes to break that tie; the Vice President's role in the Senate is refered to in the Constitution as the "President of the Senate", but that doesn't make him the same President as the President of the United States. Similarity in title doesn't mean the titles refer to the same thing.

 

[Telepath]

I don't understand how Sinclair being 'known as the One who Was' contradicts any secrecy about Valen.

It does not, if the Minbari say that Valen (not Sinclair/Valen) is the One who Was, Delenn is the One who is, and Sheridan the One who will be. Then, Sinclair (who is of the same time as Delenn and Sheridan) is out of the picture for them.

Edit: Concerning the One who will be: How do they know that he WILL BE? Are we ever given any information on that?

 

[Galahad]

Worth pointing out here, that it's not the Minbari who apply the whole "was, is and will be thing". It's Zathras... and as he points out, he's had access to the Great Machine and has seen things that maybe even Draal has yet to discover. He uses the Minbari's reverence for the number three as an illustration.

 

[Jan]

I'm still confused. The *Minbari* don't know anything about the is-was-will be thing. It's Zathras who seemed to have that information, probably by way of Draal and the Great Machine. We don't have any indication that the Minbari call any of them anything. Or am I missing something?

Jan

 

[Galahad]

Hmmm, guess I must be invisible... because I'm sure I just said something like that!

 

[Jan]

Hmmm, guess I must be invisible... because I'm sure I just said something like that!

Sorry, Galahad. I didn't see that the thread had gone to a second page and missed that you *had* said exactly the same thing.

Jan

 

[Galahad]

No worries... I have my settings the other way round so the most recent entries appear at the top... which is why that didn't become apparent.

 

[Telepath]

Worth pointing out here, that it's not the Minbari who apply the whole "was, is and will be thing". It's Zathras... and as he points out, he's had access to the Great Machine and has seen things that maybe even Draal has yet to discover. He uses the Minbari's reverence for the number three as an illustration.

Yesss.... very good Thanx Galahad.

 

[Telepath]

I just finished watching "Atonement" and "Grey 17" again, and I'm still confused with the whole Sinclair affair. I think it would be really interesting to read the actual prophecies of Valen. One would think that after the Minbari scanned Sinclair and made him Entil'Zha, they believed he was Valen reincarnated, fulfilling prophecy that Valen would return someday. Yet, no Minbari outside the Grey Council seems to be actually told WHY Sinclair is made Entil'Zha. Then he vanishes with B4, and all we hear is "The loss of Ranger 1 was a great blow to us". Hello? The shadows are upon us, Valen reborn is lost in space, and we are as calm and detached as ever, going on with life as if nothing had happened? Okay, probably I'm overlooking something here... anyone?

 

[maneth]

I'm pretty sure that Minbari high in the religious caste would know about who Valen was, at least after Sinclair went. Certainly those high in Delenn's Mir clan apparently knew after her dreaming, when it was decided she would be allowed to stay with Sheridan.

 

[Telepath]

I think I may have found the answer to my question. Since the rangers were trained in secret, not many would know of Sinclair as Entil'Zha. The rangers were commissioned by the religious caste, and the warrior caste opposed that decision (cp. Neroon's comment on the reason for surrender at the Battle of the Line). It seems that the Minbari believed that Sinclair was Valen reborn, and probably they thought he would lead them in the coming war against the shadows. When Sinclair went back through time with B4, it became clear that Valen was Sinclair transformed. No one would be told except high-ranking Minbari. I think the problem is that in S1 I still feel that Valen's prophecies concern the next shadow war and the return of Valen, but after the appearance of Sheridan, the prophecies become vague somehow (after being very precise, cp. Delenn's cocoon).

It would have been nice to have some prophecy referring to Sinclair / Valen leaving on the eve of the Shadow War, to give his power into the hands of a "human not born of humans" or something like that

 

[A_M_Swallow]

It would have been nice to have some prophecy referring to Sinclair / Valen leaving on the eve of the Shadow War, to give his power into the hands of a "human not born of humans" or something like that

Something like "The Hand that saves the galaxy for light shall first be saved by the hands of the many names of Light". Part of the mythology of a hundred worlds.